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"Indian culture safeguards the pride of women" - Do you agree? (Active GD)


Posted Date: 10 Feb 2013      Posted By:: Jose Mathew Profile photo      Member Level: Gold    Member Rank: 49     Points: 5   Responses: 152



Members,

We Indians are proud of our rich and varied culture. It is true that we had a great culture in the past. But we have to rethink about the place where we are standing at present. The atrocities against women are increasing day by day. Every morning we are hearing new edition of attacks on women. Our women and sisters are not safe in our CAPITAL too. Here comes the issue whether "Indian culture safeguards the pride of women".

ISC announcing a GD on this topic - "Indian culture safeguards the pride of women" - Do you agree? . Members can post your views regarding this topic.

GD will be closed on 15th February. Members can also post resources on this topic that will be considered for cash credits and selecting the winners too.

Jose Mathew
Webmaster ISC




Responses

#397881    Author: K Mohan      Member Level: Platinum      Member Rank: 4     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

First of all my appreciation to the ISC for starting this wonderful thread as the group discussion.

I fully agree that the Indian culture safeguards the pride of the women living in this country. There are many reasons for that. The main being the dress code. Most of the religions in this country are sure about the dress and every care has been taken to give full safely to women. For example the South Indian way of wearing sari is the best way to protect the body of the women without over exposure to the cynosure eyes of the world. Whereas when we compare the western outfits, there is a chance for peeping into the beauty of women body, but that is not possible in our dress culture. Likewise in North wearing Shirt salvaar is the best way to protect the women body. Apart from dress, the way of behaving, the way of giving respect to the elders and husband and moire over tackling multitask at the home is the best example of Indian women who really follows the culture in toto.

Follow mission, the commission and recognition will follow you.


 
#397884    Author: Sun Online     Member Level: Platinum      Member Rank: 10     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 4

Members,
I must first thank Web Master Jose Mathew for announcing such a wonderful topic for Group discussion after a long gap. To start with my argument, I say No and do not agree to say that Indian culture safe guards the pride of women. Though Indian culture is to safeguard the women, presently it is not safeguarding the women with the change in Indian culture. We Indians changed our culture and are deviating from the original culture. At present we are not what we are supposed to be now. There is a vast change in our culture due to science, education and development. Hope you all will agree with me.

Regards,
Sun of ISC - Let us learn good English through ISC


 
#397887    Author: K Mohan      Member Level: Platinum      Member Rank: 4     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

I strongly disagree with the view points of Sun. If some women wont follow the culture does not brand it to be bad. The culture is really good but some women are not following due to their western style influence. But normally the women are comfortable and safe with our culture.

Follow mission, the commission and recognition will follow you.





 
#397889    Author: Sukhdev Singh      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 13     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

From the times immemorial, the Indian women have been enjoying a unique position in Indian culture. Whether we study our social history or we go back to even our mythological stories, we find that the Indian women had held a place of pride in our society. According to Hindu religious and philosophical thought, woman in India has been regarded as Parashakti that means that she is the ultimate energy and the source of power. Read how Shiva, the Hindu God. who forms the one of the Trinity of Indian God system, praised Parvati in the literary work of Aadi Shankaracharya "Soundaraya Lahiri". If we give a little thought to how our Gods were addressed, then we can really appreciate the power of women in our ancient society. We address Lord Rama as Sithapati, Lord Shiva as Umapathi or Girijavallbha. This very clearly emphasize the importance the woman is given in the Indian culture.

"Teaching is my passion and sharing knowledge is my motto"
Regards,
Sukhdev Singh
Lead Editor Forums Section


 
#397893    Author: Dr. AT        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 20     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

The culture of India does not protect the women from any pride of a womanhood. This pride of womanhood is on all the levels of a woman - the pride can be physical and even the mental pride of a woman is abraded and bruised to the worst of its possibility.
The recent attacks are not actually "recent". Such events happens EACH and EVERY day and that too not only in India but worldwide where the pride of woman is abused physically. Simply because a woman does not give heed to the will and desires of the man who confronts her.

The society seems to have forgotten its limits when it comes to issues where woman is confronted by a man or men.

A woman is subjected to abuse right in the levels of home and family where she is abused for hiding the mistakes of others in the family and to cover and hush up several issues.

When a girl gets married and goes to her husband's home, she is abused and shouted upon by the in laws to make her mouth shut. Fights, physical assault, suicides, separations in families happens just because of this assault on the pride of women.

I would not say that the girl is right on every occassion. But still when she is right, why does she have to suffer to lessen her pride in the society.

On the physical side, why does the woman have to get her pride assaulted and then why do media have to make a publicity stunt and and further make the woman to get drenched in the loss pf pride?

Regards,
Dr. Apurva A. Tamhane
M.D. Homeopathy, C.C.H., C.G.O., C.C.M.
Homeopathy Physician


 
#397896    Author: Sun Online     Member Level: Platinum      Member Rank: 10     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 4

Mr. Mohan,
Your are simply looking at the women's dress. Culture doesn't mean only the dress culture that we adapt western culture. Apart from the dress culture there are varieties of things need to be understood. The behaviour of a women. How a women respect a man. How women are respected by men. How women are treated inside home and outside home. Then comes working culture. I mean to say that all these things have changed in India without giving a touch to western culture. We are practically observing the women and their pride in India which is not safe. We brand women as weaker sex and degrade them.

Regards,
Sun of ISC - Let us learn good English through ISC


 
#397897    Author: Sukhdev Singh      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 13     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

@ Dr. Apurva Tamhane

We cannot take a few cases as an example and then generalize the whole society and give it a very gloomy picture. It is true that some cases of atrocities are reported in our media. It is the job of the media to sensationalize any news they get. In a population of 110 crores of people, these cases cannot brand the whole society as averse to the values and safety of the women. We have seen in the Delhi rape case that if there are a few group of culprits who lost their mind and attacked the hapless girl and raped and murdered her. But we should not forget that there were thousands of men and women who thronged the streets of Delhi in support of the girl. Similarly, there may be a few cases where the daughter-in-laws are harassed by a few in-laws, but that cannot be taken as instance the brand the whole of our society to be bad. There are more good in-laws than bad in-laws. I agree that of late the things have become quite worse. We need to change our mind sets to bring about improvement in the situation.

"Teaching is my passion and sharing knowledge is my motto"
Regards,
Sukhdev Singh
Lead Editor Forums Section


 
#397901    Author: Aditya Das      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 200     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Hello to all!

Yes, Indian culture in the true sense do safeguard the pride of women. I mean to say that at the present moment of time when Western culture has diluted our country to the best extent, our own culture has become two principal types: [1] Traditional Indian Culture which has been from ages [2]Modern Indian Culture which has western mix in it. Well, history has innumerable proofs that Indian culture has the ethics to provide ample knowledge to understand the self dignity of a woman, no matter whose wife/daughter/sister is she. But definitely, the present era has changed a lot and women are becoming extra-independent which is perhaps an important cause in being tortured or put into an unexpected incident like the recent incident in New Delhi. Again by saying so, I don't mean to hurt any self prestige of a modern Indian woman. But the thing lies there a bit too. So, all those pollution have come into exist due to Western culture being adopted by many.

Regards,
Aditya Das
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'Errors always show the lightened path of perfection'


 
#397910    Author: Manikandan Sankar      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 202     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 4

Hi all,

Firstly I would like to appreciate Jose Mathew for tossing a right topic at the right time. Coming to the topic, I wont agree that India is safe guarding women's pride. As Sun said, we keep on talking about women's rights in recent days. But even now in many of the villages and even in some corporates women were not treated well. We talk about the dress codes in Schools, Colleges and Corporates, but we were not giving much importance in teaching the morel values to the young generations. Its not the dresses to be changed, its the mind that needs to be changed. The world is changing so be the people and their culture is also changing, this needs to be accepted by everyone.

"We will either find a way or make one"

Regards,
Mani


 
#397911    Author: JyotiS      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 163     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Indian culture involves much more then the dress code and respect for elders; it is a way of life and forms the basic of our social structure.
Here I would like to remind you of the 'khaap panchayat'. Before writing anything I would like to state that I am totally against the idea of killing anyone in the name of honor but I personally I appreciate the basic thought and structure of 'panchayat' culture where every girl in a village is considered as a sister and anyone keeping a bad eye on a girl of the village was punished by the village community. It was the basic unwritten rule and was best for the safety of the girls.
But with the influence of western culture this tradition has taken a wrong turn. As a kid I used to feel so much safe whenever I used to visit my village thinking all the men are either my uncles or my brothers; but gone are the days when those traditional rules were followed and women used to feel so much safe in her community.

________
Regards,
JS.


 
#397925    Author: Aditya Das      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 200     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

@ Mohan Sir,

Well said and I agree to your points.

@ Jyoti,

Well said too.

@ Sun and Manikandan Sankar,

Guys, let us light upon what we have in our treasure for the real meaning of Indian culture. First, women learn to cover up their essential parts of the body only in Indian culture, nowherelse. Secondly,women do take care about looking at or even talking to a known or unknown person according to family and social etiquettes. This happens only in Indian culture. Third and most vital point, real Indian culture never teaches a woman to be independent or over-independent. That is, if women want to be, they must be accompanied with proper measures or ready to protect themselves. Here, I don't mean to slam modern women on their independent living. because most of them are well able to secure themselves. However, anything minor error causes a havoc like the New Delhi incident.

If you are talking about modern Indian culture, which is simply a duplication of western standard of living, then definitely it is a huge concern for us. We must wipe off imitating other nations and try to cultivate our own golden culture to be able to safeguard women to the best extent.

Regards,
Aditya Das
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Errors always show the lightened path of perfection'


 
#397927    Author: Kalyani        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 37     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

It is true that ours is a rich culture which safeguards the pride of women. But unfortunately this is not in practice by our people though it is in our culture. We have high respect for our culture and we are proud of our culture but did our people try to follow the culture in its true sense. Unfortunately no. And this is not in the recent past but since olden days women in India were / are being suppressed in the name culture and in the name of safeguarding their pride. Though woman was much talented and knowledgeable yet she not given the chance to express herself and was confined to the four walls in the name of safeguarding her pride and in the name of culture. She has been used as a thing since ancient times and was not being treated as a human. In addition she was / is being considered a property of man or her husband who suppress her in all ways including her feelings and thoughts just in the name of safeguarding her pride. Can such a gender suppression be called 'safeguarding'? What is the true meaning of 'safeguarding her pride'? It is irony that though we have rich culture and high respect for women in our culture with a special place for her in the society but never she got / gets the due respect.

In the present days, though we are proud of marching ahead on the roads of progress and making a place for ourselves in the global market, yet women are not getting their due respect in the society. Women have a high place in our society which is confined to our culture only but not in practice. How far our women are enjoying their freedom of expression? Is there any emotional support for our women in the society?

From age old days, she has been / is brought up with such a mind set that she is a woman and she has to depend on men for everything in her life. Why such a feeling is being imposed in her mind right from her childhood? Why so many restrictions to her from childhood but such is not the case with men? Right from ancient period, she is considered as an inanimate object without any feelings and was being used just to fulfill the biological needs of men and as a machine for the continuity of lineage.

Can we call this as 'safeguarding her pride'?

-----------------
Thanks & Regards
Kalyani


 
#397934    Author: Sukhdev Singh      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 13     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

I appreciate the views of Jyothi. The Khap panchayats may be legally wrong in what they are doing. I am also against honour killing. Of course, the Khap panchayats are taking the law into their own hands by giving the extreme punishment to the girls who violate the spirit of their traditional culture. Our culture, especially the north Indian culture, does not allow marriage between brothers and sisters and even between cousins. However, the role of the Panchayats should be an advisory one in this respect. They should not be allowed to punish the girls even if they think that the acts committed by them are immoral according to them. We are the country where even nature is personified as woman. We call our land as Mother Earth and we address our sacred river Ganga as Mother Ganga. Certain religions of the world have been formed by their prophets. The Hindu religion is the only religion which has evolved by the saints and sages of the past where their wives had equal role to play in its formation. If the sage Atri had Anasuya, Gautama had Ahalya and the sage Vasishta's consort was Arundhati. Such was their influence on our culture that we name our girls after the names of the wives of these great saints. When it came to save the honour of women, our ancient Indian culture reveals that war with Ravana was fought to recover Sita, Mahabharata was the great war that was fought to protect the honour, modesty and chastity of Draupathi. Indian culture has been alive for the last 5000 years based on the virtuous lives led by the Indian women. The other communities who came and ruled our country from time to time have definitely left their mark on the Indian culture which has now been synthesized into a culture which we call it Indian culture. In spite of the fringe incidents involving sexual assaults on women, as a whole, the Indian women have contributed a lot to the building of the modern Indian society.

"Teaching is my passion and sharing knowledge is my motto"
Regards,
Sukhdev Singh
Lead Editor Forums Section


 
#397946    Author: Ramakrishna Kambhampati      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 114     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Indian culture in my opinion definitely safeguards the pride of a woman. Dress code followed by woman, respect shown to elders, disciplined way of family living, keeping the family members together by her household activities are the result of Indian culture. This type of disciplined way of happy family living cannot be found in many other cultures because they follow distinctly different modes of life. This is the reason why so many foreigners are attracted to our culture. One has to keep in mind, culture means not only dress code but also the customs in general, personal customs, marriages and the value given to married life etc. Culture also decides the way one talk, behave and move in the society. In Indian culture lot of flexibility is there for growth and development of the woman. From ancient time onwards so many woman got great fame and name through their independent contributions or through their personal abilities. At present also so many woman in India fully following our culture marching a head of any other woman of other countries. Sarojini Naidu, Indira Gandhi, Pratibha Patil, Jayalalitha etc are some of the examples. So, saying our culture cannot safeguard the pride of woman not true.

 
#397947    Author: Saji Ganesh        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 42     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Culture is a refined way of life which is based on the customs and intellectual and social activities of a particular group of people. Pride is a sense of self satisfaction or a sense of personal worth. So, I don't think it would be easy to answer the question put forth in the thread.

In the responses above, we have members touching upon different aspects of culture, like dress, respect, family, abuse, way of life and so on. Now, this is where things become complicated. While we have to admit that women have always been given a place of respect in the society, the question as to whether she enjoyed the way that respect was shown will have contradictory answers. I think the response by Kalyani is a pointer to this contradiction.

In the olden days women were not allowed to move around freely or to mingle with men because men were supposedly concerned about their safety and maintained the view that a woman is for the family and not for the public. But, if you look at the other side, you will find that women always felt that they were being restricted within the four walls of their homes and did not enjoy the freedom they wanted. It is another thing that women in those days were not very reluctant to remain submissive to men and hence there were no issues.

That is why I said that one cannot say for sure that Indian culture safeguards the pride of women. Pride depends on the way a woman conceive her self to be.


 
#397950    Author: JyotiS      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 163     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Why do I feel after going through some of the replies that most of the people especially males of a society takes it for granted that it is the responsibility of a women to take steps to safeguard her pride; from wearing decent un-revealing clothes to remaining dependent on males of the society. Can anyone tell me what in their opinion is the duty of a male in a traditional society apart from winning the bread for their family? They can keep a bad eye for women working outside and when asked the reason he simply comes up with the reasoning that she was wearing western clothes. This is too sarcastic.
Further, according to a national report on crime against women, majority of abuses occur on women who're decently dressed. Additionally, majority of them were carried out by relatives or family friends or known persons whom a women thought are her well wishers.
A women always dresses up according to the situation and environment. Have you ever seen a women or a girl on a bus stop wearing objectionable clothes? No you won't. This is because she knows what to wear at that place and still she has to face abusive comments and touches in the crowd of the bus. A girl wears western attire when it is the demand of her job or her husband/boyfriend and mostly when she is being accompanied by a man in a car. Girls in a college wears jeans which may be a western attire but I guess it is better than 'chudidaar' and I do not find it offensive. It usually covers her complete body gracefully. So I will not connect dress code with being traditional.

Tradition in my opinion is how a person behaves in the society, what he thinks and how he acts towards his fellow beings.

________
Regards,
JS.


 
#397951    Author: Sun Online     Member Level: Platinum      Member Rank: 10     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

Members,
I fully support Ms. Kalyani's response. She has brought out the facts in details. In India, we have the culture to safeguard the pride of our women, but how? It is safeguarded inside the four walls. Their pride is suppressed with their life. A lady should not move outside her home. Apart from her husband a lady should respect her in laws and care them. A lady is used as a maid servant than a respectable member of the family. The so called "Bahu" is responsible for every thing while the her sister-in-laws will enjoy at home. Even they torture them and sent home if they are not satisfied. Should we call this as good Indian culture that safeguards the pride of a women. Of course they are physically safe at home, but mentally unsafe inside the home. Many women tolerate and live happily as it is their destiny of life, but many live a disgruntled life keeping their feeling compressed in their heart. Someone might argue that it is not happening with every family, but I can say that it happens with most of the families. This is the reason our courts are filled with divorce cases galore. When a women cannot be safe inside her home, how can we expect her to be safe outside her home in this modern developed world.

Regards,
Sun of ISC - Let us learn good English through ISC


 
#397963    Author: Aditya Das      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 200     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

@ Kalyani and Sun,

Guys, I disagree to the point that 'Indian Culture safeguards women' is only an irony. The fact is there so much for putting into practical by women in life from this culture. And by doing this, no intelligent woman can feel that she is imprisoned inside the four walls. Again there are many gentlewomen in the present Indian society who are well educated, have self recognition and prestige, are employed and they do follow each and every bit of the traditional and social courtesy which simply ornaments their qualities and attitude. I have seen these type of respected ladies. So, the feeling of being a maid servant only arises when women are reluctant to remain in the line of family rules due to their ego of big qualification and earning from employment. Here, no-one should interpret that modern living of women is bad but the bad truth is due to western influence, now-a-days maximum women prefer to maintain a fully independent life which has the least connection with the respect and welfare of other family members.

Regards,
Aditya Das
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Errors always show the lightened path of perfection'


 
#397965    Author: Manikandan Sankar      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 202     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

@ Kalyani and Saji Ganesh
I completely agree to you points.

@ Ramakrishna
The women's you mentioned where the exceptions. You are able to point out the successful women's; it means the numbers are very less and countable. You said women's are marching ahead in our country, but recently in Kashmir a girl's rock band was opposed by the people, in the name of religion. At last they decided to quit. Is this what you call as women freedom? Even players like Sania Mirza were De-motivated in the name of dress code.

@ Jyoti
Your concerns are right. I would just want to some more points to your view. Peoples in village frame their own rules and restriction to women in the form of Khap Panchayats. They ensure the safety of women, provided they need to follow the rules listed
1. Women cannot use mobile phones in public
2. Women under the age of 40 cannot go outside without a male relative to accompany them
3. Women should cover their heads in public.
This is what we call as women's freedom? Do you think putting all these restrictions in the name of religion would safe guard the women's pride? No not at all, by these restrictions we are degrading the women's quality.

@ Aditya Das
I disagree with certain points of yours. Women know how to dress in accordance to their culture. Though we are inherited by foreign dressing sense, still our people obey to the culture. Secondly, women are not immature, they know to whom they should talk and whom not to. Even when compared to men, they are more careful about these things. Your third point shows the men dominance over women. It shows men are not ready to obey or allow the women to be on their own. From whom we are trying to protect women? Is it from Evil? No not at all, it's from fellow men's. So instead asking them to be in the bounded rules, why can't we change ourselves? If women's in foreign countries are able live with that dress sense and attitude why can't we? Then think off who need to change?

"We will either find a way or make one"

Regards,
Mani


 
#397972    Author: Saji Ganesh        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 42     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Let us not confuse between freedom, respect and pride. Pride is an individual feeling that can neither be bestowed nor imposed. One woman may take pride in being a responsible housewife while another may not feel so and may take pride in being able to do a job and contribute to the finances of the family. One woman may take pride in obeying the dictum of her family while another may take pride in living a life of her choice. They need not reciprocate their feelings. There may be respect for each other but then the feeling of pride cannot be shared. What I mean to say is that pride is more or less a relative term and I don't think we can measure it by a common scale. I am sure that our woman will agree with what I say.

Now, if we construe, for argument sake, that by safeguarding pride we mean that a woman is respected as she is, then we must prepare our self for a structural change in our society. I understand that such a proposition is stretching things too far, but then that is the fact. A woman's pride is intact as long as she is allowed to be herself. If you want her to change and live according to your wishes, I feel that you will be hurting her pride as an individual and thereby as a woman. The essence of pride in the present day women is quite different from what it used to be in the past.

I have posted a common response without naming any of the members above. Hope you will find your own answers, if available.


 
#397974    Author: JyotiS      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 163     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

@Saji Ganesh, I appreciate your opinion and agree that the base for evaluating a women's pride is not same for everyone.

@ Aditya Das,
When would a women prefer to lead an independent life? When she feels that in spite of her every effort she is not given due importance. When both the partners are working, dealing with same work pressure and office tensions, why is it that a male in the traditional society feels that he has no obligations to help his wife in household chores?

The independence actually costs a women much more than what a man could think. She now does work in two fronts: one at home and other in office, still she is expected not to complain even if sometimes she is too tired. And then slowly she start getting a feeling of detachment from her husband; when she is earning and looking after home and kids without his help then why to live with him and deal with every day fight; this is the attitude that lets a women seek divorce.
So ultimately it is the basic non-helping nature of males that leads to this behavior and action of women.

There used to be no concept of divorce in Hindu marriage but that does not means that every marriage was a successful one. What kept everything going smoothly was the support of the family for the women. There used to be 'panchayat' system where every dispute was resolved smoothly and the pride of a women kept intact.

________
Regards,
JS.


 
#397975    Author: R. Gautham Shenoy      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 1025     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Members,
India women are not safe because not only women but also men are deviating themselves from the Indian culture, which is several thousand years old. The impact of western culture and movies are spoiling the young minds. If we look at India, a few years ago when culture was the utmost priority of the people there were very few incidents related to the pride and security and pride of women. If we look at our culture carefully then we can find that it has many scientific reasons.

The dressing style of women is not the only reason to be blamed. Man should have a healthy respect towards a woman regardless her kind of dress. But these both things are not happening as the people have totally forgotten the culture of India. A woman should express her beauty in her culture rather than dressing style and make up.

The issues highlighted by the media are only a few issues related to woman harassment. But there are many more cases where women are subjected to daily torture both physically and mentally. Most of the issues are unnoticed. In most of these cases dressing sense, character of women are not the reasons. Dowry is the main reason for many of the women harassment cases.

So, I strongly believe that the pride of woman is safe guarded by the culture of India. Here both men and women should follow good culture to avoid these type of brutal attacks on woman.

Regards,
R. Gautham Shenoy.


 
#397988    Author: Manikandan Sankar      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 202     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

@ Aditya Das
Women are becoming an important factor in all sense. In the past they were kept only to look after the family and to take care of home making activities. But now, in the latest situation it is well known that, a family can run only if both men and women contribute together. This is understood by men too, but the problem here is, it's an added responsibility to a women. Now they need to take care of both family and also they have to contribute. Here the men should understand the struggles of a woman, and they need to support them rather than putting additional pressure on them.

@ Sun
You casted a good point on Dowry, which is followed traditionally by many people. Recent stats shows " Eighty percent of bank loans were taken by people to meet Dowry demands" and " One Women dies every hour in our country in dowry related cases". This is a long running story of Indian culture, but we haven't done anything to stop or decrease these stats. Even a well educated women, need to pay dowry to get married. In the past the divorce cases were less; this is not because of culture, it is because of women's ignorance. They are trained to tolerate all these bullish acts by in-laws.

"We will either find a way or make one"

Regards,
Mani


 
#397990    Author: Aditya Das      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 200     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@ Manikandan Sankar #397965,

Could you please answer from whom women 'safeguarded'? If it is not evil, then what is it and why the question of 'safeguarding' arises here?

But yes, I do agree that both men and women have changed their standard of living and if the question of Indian culture has been put here, both of them need to rectify their attitude and loyality towards culture.

@ Jyoti,

I think you can better understand than me regarding how can a woman be independent. By remaining attached to family or detached from family? The real feeling of independent living and pleasure is derived by a woman when she keeps herself united with family and her weals and woes are shared by all. But, by maintaining a separate life [which you call the apparent independent life], she has to manage each and every task on her own. I think now you must be clear which is a real independent life.

But yes, I like your good question in the middle. There are many men or other family members who hate to cope or help women in familial works/matters. In that sense, a woman is natural to get frustrated and prefer a secluded life. So, from this the necessity for men's contributions are also equally important. Still, the overall proportion of such cases in India stands lower than what is natural and well known. That is why, it is a well known proverb in India that a house wife can build or break a family and this is no fluke. So, majority of essential role, active inspiration and contribution for the unity of family comes from women/housewives. Do you disagree?

@ Manikandan Sankar #397988,

Dear, all the traditional family rules in India are never a pressurized burden on women. And also all my earlier comments never targeted to imply this. Then why do you think that I want to say only to bind the women with some rules and put pressure on them? It is really quite unfortunate that we both men and women never get ready to be on the disciplinary line.

I never said women are to remain subordinates forever. But yes, men too have equal role to play when we talk of providing safety to women.

Regards,
Aditya Das
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'Errors always show the lightened path of perfection'


 
#397997    Author: Ramprasad      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 26     Date: 10/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Firstly, I would like to thank Webmaster for announcing GD on current trending issue of women pride, Indian cultures are safeguards for women pride in past at where the nation and people were following moral and ethical values but at present it is unfortunate to say that majority of us have forgotten the Indian cultures and tradition, blindly adopting the western cultures, hence women are experiencing assaults on them daily. There is no doubt in saying that Indian cultures are safeguards for the pride of women, but where the Indian cultures are and how many of us are following Indian cultures at present are the main questions. The changes in advanced world and introduction of latest technological aids have made people to forget Indian traditions and cultures, joint family culture has been disappeared and nuclear families have been on a rise. Communication between family members are very hard to see, both husband and wife are going for work, hence kids have been growing –up independently and easily getting attracted towards bad habits. The Indian Society has been changed leaving behind the Indian traditions and cultures. In Manu dharma Shastra's we have lines, at where women gets respect in that place only God will reside. But what we have been witnessing women have been getting harassed and sexual assaults have been appearing at every-where. To stop such kind of degrade of women, yes we need people to know and follow the Indian traditions and cultures, parents and teachers have to make them children to know and follow the Indian tradition and cultures which stresses the need of showing respect towards women. Along with these cultures, the mid-sets of individuals in terms of treating women have to be changed.

There are some things that money just cannot buy, like manners, morals and intelligence.


 
#398044    Author: Venkiteswaran.      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 17     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Thanking the web master for announcing an actively debatable topic, and all those members who had put forth their views till now, I enter a bit late into the discussion arena.As it is obviously not possible to pin point each member's view and either concur or contradict, I put my views in common to be considered buy all.

I open my discussion points by stating that I support the title statement of the GD that "Indian culture safeguards the pride of women"

But to substantiate my stand I will have to take each word in the title and explain with suitable relevance to the discussion.
The words to be taken for clarity are:

Indian Culture: What does Indian culture mean? _ Culture is a totality of all that has been consistently believed,practice,imposede and enjoyed for many many years or historically. Hence it is not today's or yesterday's. India was not in existence as today before a hundred years ago. But the word' India Culture' immediately denotes the way of life of the great Indian land mass or subcontinent before the attacks by the Mughals, Muslim and the Colonial conquerors. Otherwise the present Indian culture is not a separate one but a mixture of all the cultures of Arabs, Mughals, Muslims, British and European and other mixtures.

How we know, what was the Indian culture before the other culture invasions and conquerings? These are mostly available from the folklore, music, paintings, traditions and literature existing even now or handed over by oral traditions The depended ones are the available great twin epics Mahabharata and Ramayana. We shall take up those later, even though interpreting them with our present knowledge and prejudices may be deficient.

The next word is "pride"- What is the meaning of pride? It is a self respecting feeling edging on a border or ego that self status is high and worth. The person feels comfortable to declare his or her position openly and does not need to change the status. Then we have to see is a woman's pride separate than the commonly understood meaning?

Then I take the word safeguard- It means here that the safety has to be guarded with some inbuilt or default provisions. Is it available in the Indian culture? Here also I stand with 'yes'. I shall deal with them in my subsequent posts.

Just to close this post, I say that, had we not gone away from the Indian cultural ways of life, this present question would not have even arisen. The present problem is due to the abandoning of Indian culture and tradition as orthodox and then imbibing an invited modern culture of other countries, where itself these modern ways are debated as detrimental..

==================================
Let us keep faith on ourselves and work sincerely, not leave everything to fate.


 
#398049    Author: JyotiS      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 163     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@ Manikandan Sankar, #397965.
Among the 3 points you have mentioned, I do not find first two points relevant in our present day society. Even in villages there is no restriction on the use of cell phones for women and I have seen women and girls going to farms and markets alone; what you are stating seems like a scene from highly restricted community and countries. In India, apart from some very sensitive areas like Kashmir, you would hardly find these two points in operation.
Yes, I do agree with the custom of covering the head as a symbol of respect and even 'ghunghat' system but there is a history behind it. During the invasion of Mughals in India, this system came into existence. Whenever a Mughal emperor or any of his chief used to find a girl beautiful, they used to take her forcefully with them to keep them in their Haram. As a precaution, the local women started covering their faces and the tradition went on. Before that, we had a pure Hindu community in India where women enjoyed high status in the society.
From time to time there have been additions and subtractions in the basic traditional rules to be followed in the society according to the demand of the situation.

@ Ramprasad,
I like and fully agree with your quote from Manu dharma Shastra, "at where women gets respect in that place only God will reside".

________
Regards,
JS.


 
#398066    Author: R. Gautham Shenoy      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 1025     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

@Ramprasad, #397997
I totally support your statement that "the mid-sets of individuals in terms of treating women have to be changed" because in olden days Women were treated like Goddess Lakshmi who would bring prosperity and shower money. They used to treat her with utmost care and husband use to be her moral support. But in the present scenario the term "Lakshmi" does not find its place. Women are being tortured and are forced to bring money in the form of dowry where as the latter used to shower money with happiness. The real meaning of "Lakshmi" will be satisfied only if the women are treated the right way.

@Venkiteswaran, #398044
I totally agree with your comment on Indian Culture and especially this statement "abandoning of Indian culture and tradition as orthodox and then imbibing an invited modern culture of other countries".

Regards,
R. Gautham Shenoy.


 
#398069    Author: Aditya Das      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 200     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@ Ramprasad,

Yes, you brought out the factual scenario of the present day living and this creates an urgent necessity for understanding what is the real value of our tradition and culture. I am sure there will not be lack of people to come out and ridicule at us if we speak of a woman to follow the traditional family rules and courtesies. But alongwith modern education and employment, I don't see if there is any such big impediment for both women and men to remain in or follow a traditional family discipline. To say frankly, dress codes, behaviour, way of talking, mentality or mindset [as you cited] and of course performing activities mutually in a proper channel makes you feel even more comfortable and independent than the separate or so called independent life which is full of business, restlessness, rigidness due to nonstop managing of works and lastly the risk of safety.

@ Venkiteswaran,

Kudos to you sir for lightening up the real facts of Indian culture. In fact, I feel ashamed many a times as to why we people don't understand all this and blindly follow a borrowed culture which brings out havoc in the end?

Regards,
Aditya Das
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'Errors always show the lightened path of perfection'


 
#398070    Author: Venkiteswaran.      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 17     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

As promised in my previous post in this discussion, let me first discuss the phrase "woman's pride".

This question of a woman's pride is dealt here because of applying the western cultural mores. When we relate it to Indian culture, we should understand that our country's tradition is to consider man and woman as the two wheels of society. They are mutually supplementary and complimentary. One does not exist without the other. Hence one's pride is dependent and intertwined with other's pride.
Nature has not made man and woman exactly same. It wanted both to perform their own role independly and in complementing each other's role. Independently taken and seen both are incomplete as per nature's design and default. Hence they complement each other and become complete.

This is what nature has expected from humans . Nature wanted humans to jointly procreate and nurture the species. For this it needed man to contribute a part and the woman to complete the residual part. But here the nature has given a unique role to woman- that of giving her blood and nourishment to nurture the new life for a long gestation and then bring it to the world and make it another of her species. So nature has added innate sentiments to women to enable her to take care of the new life . Nature has given the inequality of to woman and kept her in a high pedestal making her a necessity for the new life. So 'Motherhood', is the single uniqueness a woman has over a man. That is a woman's true and unique pride- doing something a man cannot do.

Is that pride of 'Motherhood' available to women in the Indian culture? Yes, Yes, and Yes, If not, where else you can find that? Even unmarried and small girls are also addressed as 'mother in our country.(This is still in vogue among people of Tamil Nadu, Andhra etc)

Indian tradition has seen every woman as Mother only. But then it placed mother as the first even before God. That is why the saying " Maatru Devo Bhava, Pitru Devo Bhava, " Mother herself is God. It is she who brings a new life to the world. Indians address goddesses as Mother only, not as any other way.

If one follows the traditional practice then one gets up in the morning,chanting " Karagre vasthe Lakshmi, Kara madhye Saraswati.." – praying to goddesses of Wealth and Learning first. Then before stepping on 'Mother Earth' he seeks pardon for stepping on her as in " Vishnu patni,Deva Maata, paada sparsham kshamaswa me.." again she is addressed as mother and Devi.. Our country's tradition has treated the following women as to be considered as our own mother irrespective of their age and our age:

They are:
Patni maata- wife's mother west calls as mother-in-law but fo us it is law practice and sentiments)
Guru Patni- wife of one's teacher
Raja Patni- wife of King
Jyeshta Patni- wife of elder brother
Pitru Patni- one's step mother

As per Indian culture marriage is a holy act and not just a permission to have physical relations. A marriage is considered as union of two souls and enabling the man and wife to be eligible for all the prescribed holy and spiritual functions and rituals for the good of family and world in general. Hence wife is called 'Dharm Patni". She is the one who makes her husband follow the path of Dharm- valueful life.

Even her position during all these rituals and poojas is to be noted. She gets the 'Right"position. Yes wife is on the right side of the husband when he performs the pojas and rituals.

An unmarried man or widower is not eligible to perform many rituals and yajnas.

So my emphasis is that in Indian Culture by default and design a woman is given her position of pride as an inbuilt mechanism- as a wife with rightful place, a mother with universal respect and inevitability given equal as God.. Society needs her at every turn and cannot go ahead without her. Hence if one truly follows Indian culture, there is no question for a separate safeguard of a woman's pride as it is not threatened. It is ordained of a man to take care of his daughter till her marriage, a husband to take care of his wife and the son to take care of his mother.

==================================
Let us keep faith on ourselves and work sincerely, not leave everything to fate.


 
#398072    Author: Saji Ganesh        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 42     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

I doubt whether we are moving on the right track. The question here is whether the Indian culture safeguard the pride of women. We should be talking about safeguarding the pride of women and not women as such.

So, first of all we should be able to understand what does pride of a woman mean? It is a point to be discussed. Is it the respect for her physical and mental attributes that she has for her self or which others are supposed to maintain in their thoughts about her? I am sure that it would be immature to relate a woman's pride to her chastity alone. It has got something to do with her mind also.

I might invite criticism from different quarters when I say that, if the pride of a man is his masculinity, physical and mental, the pride of a woman is her femininity, physical and mental. As a man's pride would be hurt if his masculinity is questioned, so also would a woman be hurt if her femininity is questioned. That means, the pride we are discussing about is the pride one enjoys by the reason of being accepted as an individual.

I will continue after responses from others. I saw Venkiteswaran sir's explanation only after I posted this response. I think I will start looking from the other side of the valley.


 
#398078    Author: Sukhdev Singh      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 13     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

When it comes to safeguarding of women in our society, it is embedded in our culture. Think of the relationship between a brother and sister. According to the Indian traditional culture, a sister ties a rakhi to her brother's wrist and in return brother promises to safeguard his sister from any harm which might she face in the society. This is a yearly festival celebrated all over India. Then there is a festival of Bhai Dooj just after Deepavali. Our culture is full of such traditions where we promise to safeguard the pride of our women. The problem is as Sun has pointed out that we promise this to our sisters at home, but some criminal minds in the society forget what they promise to their sisters inside the four walls of their houses as soon as they go out of their homes. They do not think that the girls moving outside on the streets, in the bazaars and at public places are also someone's sisters and mothers.

"Teaching is my passion and sharing knowledge is my motto"
Regards,
Sukhdev Singh
Lead Editor Forums Section


 
#398084    Author: Kalyani        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 37     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

I go with the views of Saji Ganesh, Sun, Manikandan Sarkar and R.Gautham Shenoy. While I would like to contradict the views of Ms Jyoti, Adity Das, Venkiteswarn sir and to some extent Ramprasad sir as well.

I think we are discussing on the topic with a different meaning of pride here. Are we taking the exact meaning of pride here? It is something more than the dress code of women and leading an independent life. Moreover, few members mentioned that we are deviating from our culture and influenced by the West, which is completely disagreeable. If you think of the condition of Indian women in olden days when there was no Western influence at all, even in those days women are not allowed to express themselves and their feelings but were totally confined to the domestic front. Unfortunately, even to these days people are under the opinion that woman is meant for looking after the household chores and looking after the needs of the family members.

Though in her inner feelings, she might be unwilling to undertake such a job and want to enjoy her life in her own way, is she being given the chance / opportunity to lead her life as per her wishes. Will a woman willing take up this job of looking after family and involving in household chores? Why women are thrust upon with this job and brought up in such a mind set from the childhood that these are the jobs of women only and not of men? Can we call this as safeguarding her pride? If we take the dress code, here too it is not safeguarding but imposing.

How safe are the women or young girls who move outdoors in fully covered dresses in comparison to those who move in Western outfits? I don't think dress code has to do anything in regard to safeguarding the pride of women..

-----------------
Thanks & Regards
Kalyani


 
#398088    Author: Preeta Saini      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 624     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

It is really traumatic to see that our country's culture is being judged by the clothes of women.Does it mean to that women in sarees and salwar-kameez are safe, nothing happens to them? What about the attacks happening on little girls and even toddler girls and infant girls?
Our country's culture totally safeguards the pride of women. It is only the psyche of some of the males of our country which is responsible for the attacks on women, and due to them our culture cannot be blamed. Our rich and vivid culture has produced successful women like Kalpana Chawla, Sushma Swaraj, Kiran Bedi, Lata Mangeshkar, Nita Ambani, Sushmita Sen, Saina Nehwal, Mamta Banerjee, Nirupama Rao, Mary Kom, Shobha De, Arundhati Roy, to name a few. They are independent and successful.
As explained by Sukhdev Sir, our culture has always glorified and respected women. It's the sorry state of some of our people who believe that women cannot be independent. Though, this notion is also changing now, as people have learnt and realised the importance of women in family and society.
I feel proud to say that my parents have made me independent and that I live in a country whose culture has made me independent.


 
#398090    Author: Ramprasad      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 26     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

@Sukhdev Sir, The Raksha bandhan festival can't be celebrated across the nation so as Bhai dooj, these festivals just gets celebrated in some parts of the nation.

Women pride can be defined in many ways. Yes every individual have to accept the truth that women only the base for the entire universe, women only bears the pain during pregnancy and delivers child both male and female into the world. In India we have different cultures starting from Kashmir to Kanyakumari. Yes cultures were there in past and in present but in past only people have shown good respect towards the cultures and traditions and lived accordingly, hence the cultures acted as the back-bone in the safeguarding of women. But at present all Indian cultures have been forgotten and people got the influence of foreign cultures and latest technological developments. People are acting according with western influences, hence are not treating women same like in past and crimes against women are increasing day by day. Women is treated as physically weak and women are mainly used for showing off skin and doing vulgar dance moments in movies, guiding people to commit assaults on women. We are desperately needed to renew our Indian cultures and traditions; we have to teach the present younger generation the sacred Indian culture not only in schools and colleges but at homes also. Starting from the small age itself children have to make learn about the basic moral values and showing the respect towards girls and women, not only at home but at all places.

There are some things that money just cannot buy, like manners, morals and intelligence.


 
#398092    Author: Kalyani        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 37     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

@ Preeta Saini

Please note that this is a GD competition and let there be a healthy discussion on this topic. Please try to avoid the use of words like 'filthy psyche' in your post which sounds impolite.
Let us maintain the decorum and participate in healthy discussion from academic point of view without any deviations.

-----------------
Thanks & Regards
Kalyani


 
#398115    Author: suhrita roy      Member Level: Bronze      Member Rank: 4548     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Hello all,
I am a bit late in responding to this thread. I read all the above threads. Mostly some have discussed about dress code some have said women's pride is in becoming a Mother, some have said woman needs protection etc.
I am giving answer to all these statements with relevance to the GD topic.
Men and women have actually been described as the two wheels of a chariot in Indian society. But, a big difference lies between describing and implementing. Firstly, when this issue arises that women needs protection, that is the first slap in this description. Does only one wheel of a chariot requires protection and the other doesn't.
Secondly, I agree to the fact that women takes pride in becoming a mother. But, what do you say when her family choses her child, i.e. girl or a boy?
A society which is unable to provide protection of a foetus which doesn't have to dress up or doesn't even have any shape to attract evil's eye speaks of providing protection to women. Girl foeticide is not a rare case in India (please refer to the country's stats). There is one village in Haryana (in India), where there is no girl, the men there PURCHASE girls from neighbouring areas to marry them and then also to have a son.
Culture cannot safeguard anyone's interest, it changes with the demand of time. If a society or culture is static, it slowly deplets from this earth.
Only thing which can safeguard a woman in any culture or society is education, not that education which we try to obtain for getting high paying jobs, but that which enriches our mind.
Why should we blame western culture? How many of us know about it? Not even I know enough to blame it for what is happening in India.
We Indians are responsible for the fate of our girls. As for dress, what dress should a two year old wear.. when even it doesn't know the difference of girls and boys, it is raped (and this is not a one in a million case, every day news papers have one such case). Why even one such case happen?
Regarding independence, I would like to say, it doesn't contain a only men's tag. We women are one of the wheel of the chariot, should we should also enjoy it.
A man after his full day's work has to get some rest, a woman after same load of work makes meal, educate her child, entertains guests. On one hand Indians give women the position of a mother and on the other hand they talk of providing protection to this Mother!
In my view Dress, Independence, and all such things are irrelevant. Women Education and awareness is required. When a mother will punish her son for exploiting a woman, that will be the day when women in India feel protected and safe.


 
#398116    Author: Bhakti Savla      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 25     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

According to me, Indian culture is the reason behind the growing atrocities on women in today's age. For me, culture is not about dressing, but it is all about the attitude and respect men have for women. Our history clearly suggests that women have always been looked down upon by Indian men. There was never equality between men and women in India. Some parts of India always wanted women to stay indoors and restrict their freedome. Other parts of India never believed that education is meant for women. How can a woman feel good about herself without proper education? This is something I cannot imagine. Our history even suggests that kings and maharajas used to even consider women as objects of entertainment by making them dance in front of several people. Indian culture and history is the root cause why women always had to fight for equality of rights in their own home or at their husband's home. I have even read about some very cheap things being done to married women since ages in several rural parts of India where some mean people have exploited the blind faith that most of us have.

The current state of women in India was a calamity waiting to happen. This was bound to happen with Indians always boasting about their culture and saying we should not get influenced from the west. The truth is majority of the rape cases and other atrocities on women happen in remote areas of India where women are fully clad. The problem areas India needs to work upon to improve the condition of women are:
-Equality of rights between men and women.

-Mandatory education of all girls in India.

-Removing the caste barrier while selecting brides as there are less women and more men in India. Without caste barrier, more men will get married at a younger age and not live alone for half of their life.

-Stop thinking that western culture is the culprit for atrocities on
women. We should learn from western countries on how they respect women and treat them on par with men. There are no discriminations between men and women in such countries and a woman can freely move around in a western country without worrying about people staring at her for what she is wearing or for her good looks. Women in such countries have their pride intact, are more safe and more happy. I have lived in foreign countries like UK and Netherlands for more than a year each and I must admit I enjoyed more freedom and respect than in my own motherland.

-Giving the freedom and liberty to a woman to setup her career and not force her to marry as soon as she completes her graduation.

-Man and woman should be equally responsible to handle household activities as well as professional work activities.

-Sex education should start at a much younger age in India.

-All schools should be made co-ed i.e. girls and boys should always study together and we should do away with "girls only" schools or "boys only" schools.

-Most important factor behind lost pride of Indian women is the dominant nature of Indian men since olden days which has never allowed the growth of women. It is impossible to understand the restrictions under which Indian women have been made to live for centuries only to prevent the disrespectful attitude of Indian men from causing more damage. It is high time Indian men learn from men of foreign countries on how to treat women and give them respect in all spheres of life. Women have feelings too and should never have been treated as entertainment objects or stress relieving objects or house maids or less capable then men. Our culture is entirely based on it. Indians need to understand what true culture is and stop giving silly reasons like dressing sense of women as the reason behind the various atrocities. A complete change of attitude needs to happen from top to bottom.

-Good policies need to be put in place to improve the ratio of men to women in India so that good men get married at a reasonable age and don't get diverted easily.

So, I completely disagree that Indian culture safeguards the pride of women as I believe that there are most things written and followed by Indians over the years in the name of culture and tradition have been dictated and influenced by dominant men.

Thanks & Best Regards,
Bhaktee


 
#398117    Author: JyotiS      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 163     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@Kalyani ma'am, I agree that dress code has nothing to do with the pride or independence of a women. I have already covered these points in my first two replies. I appreciate your view that when we are not giving a women choice of job selection, we are actually imposing things on her.

@Saji Ganesh.#398072,
I am impressed by your remark that when someone questions the femininity of a women, her pride is hurt. Just like a men, women takes pride in a number of things and her femininity is one of them along with her self respect.

Our tradition has known many variations and one of them is the continuous change in the position of a women with respect to the males in the society. When a women is taught from the very beginning that her pride is in the pride of her father/brother and after marriage in the pride of her husband, somewhere her pride is neglected; and this was actually the case in our traditional thoughts. With a new awakening due to global exposure, women in India are seeking new position in this social structure where she wishes to take pride in her own achievements and known by her name and efforts.
This cannot be attributed to western culture as women in those nations too have their own struggles. But this is the new awakening which is the result of thought processes, proper education and information system, her independence and search for her identity and name.

Males in every era and every society are always afraid of women's awakening as they think this may endanger their superior position and thus this hurts his pride.

________
Regards,
JS.


 
#398126    Author: Sreejisha      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 305     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Before coming to the conclusion of whether Indian culture safeguards the pride of women we have to regard the different problems faced by the women of Modern India and analyze how the various aspects of our culture may have misled our society to bring about the exploitation that today's women face. Sexual assaults, child marriages, dowry and female infanticide are the major evils in the society that affect women. We Indians claim to have a unique ,diverse and rich culture and it is difficult to point out where this discrimination towards women evolved and on what grounds


In our Puranas the goddesses were not only given respect by the gods but treated as the divine forms who completed her male counterpart. Just as without a woman a man is incomplete still and vice versa . But in our Vedas and Epics we have read of kings and saints having many wives. Polygamy if not propelled as entitled to honour but also hasn't been considered as one to abstain from. Doesn't this create the misconception that a man can be drawn to many women simultaneously and this is not unethical

Dowry in ancient India was given as a gift to the bride by her family to ensure her welfare in the house of her in laws. But now it has turned into a social evil with the husband and in laws tormenting the bride physically and mentally in the name of dowry. We know there have been many cases of dowry deaths through out India. And why should the bride's family be demanded for dowry when it is the bride who has to adapt to her new home ,surroundings and members of her husband's family and in most homes it is the daughter in law who has to take care of everything and everyone including the husband, children and her in laws .Then why should all this come with a price?

It is dowry and rapes that has led to the rise of yet another act of shame which is Female infanciticide. The fear of parents being incapable of acquiring enough wealth to dazzle the eyes of the groom's parents and the requirement to protect their daughters from the lustful hawksbe maybe the reasons for abandoning girl babies or killing them on birth

As such Indian culture does not downgrade women but there is still a large majority of the male population who look down on women and believe they are inferior beings created to please them and unless this uncivilized lot is educated to accept women companionship and equality without pouncing on them ,the pride of women cant be safeguarded

Regards
Sreejisha


 
#398128    Author: Ramakrishna Kambhampati      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 114     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

@Saji Ganesh, The question posed in this debate we can think in this way- following Indian culture by woman will help in maintaining her self respect or self esteem and independence. So, the question raised in the debate is quite clear. Hence, obviously we have to discuss about whether we have to follow a good part of our culture or we have to follow mixture of both parts of our own culture and foreign culture or completely foreign culture to safeguard the pride (self respect) of woman.

@Kalyani, I have gone through your responses closely. In one of your response you are stating members in discussion are deviating from real meaning of pride. In my opinion, our culture will it safeguard the self respect of woman? If it is not so, madam please give your clarification what actually pride imply in this situation?

In one of your response you stated, we are deviating from our culture completely disagreeable. But what we are seeing in our real lives in the present day world. Most of our younger generations, both men and women blindly following the western culture leaving our rich traditional customs and cultural values. Young women and men following pub culture, bar culture, bad customs followed in dressing etc. Will this culture increase the self respect of any person (male or female)? You are saying that women were suppressed in the past as they were limited to the four corners of the house. But at present in most of the families, females were treated equal to males. At present, in many families even females were dominating over males. Families are giving equal opportunities to the females to shine in education, jobs and in out side World. But in my opinion many of the females misusing these opportunities because they are attracted to western cultures like pub culture, jolly moving of male and female in the name of friendship, immoral relationships etc. Is these activities cropped up through western culture will improve the self respect of a woman or man? If anytime if one observes present day colleges and Universities, even in small villages this type of western culture it is fast spreading like a forest fire and spoiling our youth.


 
#398130    Author: R. Gautham Shenoy      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 1025     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

@Jyoti, #398117
I am unsatisfied with your comment "Males in every era and every society are always afraid of women's awakening as they think this may endanger their superior position and thus this hurts his pride". Of course there may be some people but, there are many husbands who actually support their wives, encourage them and celebrate their success. So it absurd to say that males are afraid of the achievements of women. The real meaning of culture lies in the equality of gender and the people who think that they are hurt by the success and superior position of women, Then they are culture less.

Regards,
R. Gautham Shenoy.


 
#398135    Author: Venkiteswaran.      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 17     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

In my second post (no. 398070) on this discussion, I showed how by following our culture a woman's pride is intact. Now in the same way I want to show the hollowness of the broadcasted equality and place of pride given to women by the modern culture countries who boast of equality of genders.

Our people take example of the US for proving freedom of individuals and equality of genders.

But I am sorry to say that US and many similar countries have never elected or selected a woman as their country's top post-President. But India had no problem in selecting and electing women as Prime Minister and President, before many countries even thought of it. That is because in spite of the invasion by modern cultural aberrations, there is still some good values from the old cultures sticking in them.


Coming back to our country's old culture, our people did not consider women as low or subordinate. They considered women as equal to men in matters of ruling a country or Kingdom, donning a rebel's coat or fighting a battle. Jhansi Rani, is one example of a woman leading and fighting against enemies even more valiantly than men. modern culturists. Jija Bai, the mother of Maratha warrior Shivji is also a legend for we Indians. It was the conquerors from the western side of our country who truncated all our good culture and subjugated our women to dishonour and torture as was their
culture.

Adi Shankaracharya subjected his knowledge to test by a woman 'Ubhaya Bharati, who was wife of Mandan Mishra a learned scholar. The woman's point was that as a wife is half of a man, she can substitute for her husband and Sri Shankara has to defeat her in argument. But as Shankara was a brahmachari he could not answer her questions on man-wife relationships and accepted defeat in first round(though he learned about it by switching the soul route later). This shows that women in Indian culture enjoyed a high position as debaters and moderators in scholarly discussions and enjoyed their equality with pride and were bold in dealing with questions relating to physical relations and even scholarly men like Shankaracharya accepted their supremacy in knowledge and position.
The Women's Freedom movement or Women's Liberation movement were originated from the western and European countries only, and not in India, because it was in those countries that women were not given their due respect and were considered as subordinates and objects of pleasure only. Even now it is the western cultures who consider women as commercial commodity and exhibit them as products for sale kept in glass jars

Many hundred years of alien rules spoiled all our cultural values and new theories were written for us. The later year "intellectuals' who were brought up in the colonial Indian subcontinent under the subjugated psyche fell prey to various temptations and spread the canards fed by the alien rulers and their merchants and missionaries. They initiated many 'research' works to show that anything Indian is bad. Unfortunately that stayed and in the modern day youth also believe it as such. They have thus a fixed impression that anything Indian is wrong.

Hence I feel sad on the lack of full knowledge of those who question abut the Indian culture about the safeguards to pride of women. At least the old Indian culture never made women as exhibits to be purchased for a price.

This post I have stressed that original Indian culture was magnanimous and has given equal and more status with men. Instead of treating them as subordinates, they were accepted as teachers, leaders and rulers.

I shall deal on the physical aspects on this matter in my next post.

==================================
Let us keep faith on ourselves and work sincerely, not leave everything to fate.


 
#398139    Author: Dr. AT        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 20     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Hello All
A lot has been spoken in one day from my last reply. Many members spoke of feminity, clothes, dependancy, western culture, religion, some spoke on thought and some other aspects.

Let me speak about Western culture first. Many of us and many of the Indians in general speak of the Western culture which is invading our society and making our people turn from bad to worse and it is making our culture bad and giving no good position to women.
My personal experience says a big no to this statement. And most of us may also have experienced this if they have stayed out of India and have seen the people outside India - in what we term as the Western culture.
Here, people live lives just as we live. Every one goes to work, women also go to work, handle the basic and the most important aspects of life, family, career and profession.

The country where I am staying right now is actually a state where women are given primary importance. If we were to speak of clothes and appearances, then here every woman lives a way of life which Indians wouls say to be the "Hyper"- western culture. To the extent that even a man who is not used to this culture will feel shy when living in this culture.
So, is it that woman are harrassed here to the extent of limits? Do they not have any moralities and family duties? Does it mean that they have no integrety in their lives?
Blaming a culture is not a Hollywood or Bollywood movie which one sees and then blames the whole world.

My plain answer would be a straight no.
My dear friends please understand that the webmaster has asked a great question and it has such a deep meaning in itself that it cannot be measured in such light talks like clothes and feminity.

Pride is a canvas of life of a woman. It starts right from the birth of a child. Indian parents always want to have a boy child and if it is a Female child, they will cause infanticide. I have observed even to the extent that people have bribed the doctor at the delivery table to kill the girl child so that the parents and the society has a white collar to say that the child died whle getting delivered and the doctor will throw any dirty reason to explain the death of the child or he will say in the end - "Sab uske haatho me hai"!

Next comes the pride of the girl child when it comes to schooling and education. When you go to the rural areas of India, it is still even evident that the girl child does not receive proper education and when it comes to the boy's education, a poor farmer will even sell off his farms and drown himself in huge loans for his boy's education only to know later that the boy has wasted all his money.

@ Sukhdev sir - You cannot say what I have said as only few atrocities. I being a doctor, have seen how many of such atrocities happen in India and we were always updated of the atrocities through out our education and would ask you to simply check the daily papers and I promise that you will never be able to read a daily newspaper without reading a atrocitic news.

Isn't malbehavior any less than a atrocity level behavior? Isn't partiality a atrocity? Why must be always label a physical abuse only as an atrocity?

Staying in this culture, I can see women getting equal rights to that of men.

But yes, women here are compulsorily taught to deal with such atrocities themselves. They are taught to fight their rights and gain their stand in the society.

Next, I will also speak of the pride when it comes to marriage. In Western culture women keep their own last name and then it is followed by their in laws last name.
It is not a compulsion but it is the first recognition of a woman and then the in laws last name is the next recognition of a woman. I do not say that this should be applied in our culture. But by saying this sentence I wanted to show the way women manage their pride in this society.

Coming to our ancestors, even the epic Mahabharata and Ramayana depict a question raised on the pride of a woman.

Coming to the latest movies why do they have scenes in them that will hurt a woman's pride? Is it true about what they are showing? I bet yes, it is true what all they show because the society has become a tyrant and an atrocity in itself.

Regards,
Dr. Apurva A. Tamhane
M.D. Homeopathy, C.C.H., C.G.O., C.C.M.
Homeopathy Physician


 
#398143    Author: Ramakrishna Kambhampati      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 114     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

@Bhakti Savla, In your response you are stating that women's self respect was badly degraded in India due to our culture. You also mentioned that western culture is better in protecting the pride of woman. I request you to go through one of my response #398128 to know my view. If western culture is very good why family system and human values are degrading in foreign countries when compared to India? In your view women are not getting equal self respect like men. In the present day contest your view not at all holds good. Then in your view what type of culture we have to follow to elevate the pride of women which is equal to men. In my opinion we have to give equal importance to self respect of both male and female. But at present many of the women in my opinion who say they are fighting for equal rights think that they have to surpass not only in the good practices followed by man but also in bad practices? In my opinion following good cultural customs whether male or female will elevate their pride. Then in your sense what type of culture will elevate the pride of women?

 
#398153    Author: Venkiteswaran.      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 17     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Sreejisha, by your own post you are either contradicting yourself or you are just confused. I am quoting lines from your post and then giving my views on them.

"We Indians claim to have a unique ,diverse and rich culture and it is difficult to point out where this discrimination towards women evolved and on what grounds"

So you are also convinced that this discrimination was not there in our original Indian culture. I have said in my previous post the same. The rot occurred after the foreign attackers destroyed our culture, culture symbols and subjugated men and women. Then they imposed their culture on the country and countrymen. So afterwards whatever is happening is not our real culture. But the imposed and forced culture only.


"Polygamy if not propelled as entitled to honour but also hasn't been considered as one to abstain from. Doesn't this create the misconception that a man can be drawn to many women simultaneously and this is not unethical"

You are admitting that polygamy was not expressly encouraged. The Epics showed that they were also in the society,. In Ramayana, Rama the main character is having only one wife and he is referred as God. Buthis father Dasaratha who was having more wives was referred as just King Dasaratha. So it is hinted who is given more respect. But same treatment was also given to women. Kunti was an unwed mother before marriage. She had born sons from different men. Without treating her any different all those brothers of different fathers were staying in unity and respecting their mother. They were better known as Kunti putras. So Indian Puranas did not distinguish men and women in good or bad and gave them same treatment.

"Dowry in ancient India was given as a gift to the bride by her family to ensure her welfare in the house of her in laws. But now it has turned into a social evil "

You have clarified yourself that old tradition was good and well intentioned, but it had become wrong practice in modern days. Very fine ! that is what I also want to say-nothing wrong in our old tradition and culture with regard to women.

"As such Indian culture does not downgrade women but there is still a large majority of the male population who look down on women and believe they are inferior beings created to please them "

Fantastic Sreejisha, you have given a very good point. Yes, it is the modern ramp culture which made women as commercial goods and displayed them in front of everyone as showpiece. There is never a mention in our old culture or epics of a fashion show by women.. It was just opposite. In the Swayamvara the men have to sit like ducks and try to please the bride and yearn for her attention.

==================================
Let us keep faith on ourselves and work sincerely, not leave everything to fate.


 
#398160    Author: Sukhdev Singh      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 13     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

The women have remained the pride of India due to our ancient culture. Whatever the role the woman plays in our households or while working in the organisation, she has a place of pride. We give the highest respect to a woman as a mother in contrast to the mother in the western culture. If woman does not hold a place of pride in our culture, then how we have constructed hundreds of temples where the women deities like Durga, Lakshmi, Saraswati and Bhagwati are worshipped. Such is the place of woman in India that it attracted even the ordinary women from foreign countries like Annie Beasant and Mother Teresa who rose the greater heights after they became Indian citizens. Margaret Noble followed Swami Vivekananda to India and a reached to zenith of spirituality as Sister Nivedita. Wearing of clothes does not display our culture. Our culture is the inner qualities and the innate force that women in India can feel proud of.

"Teaching is my passion and sharing knowledge is my motto"
Regards,
Sukhdev Singh
Lead Editor Forums Section


 
#398190    Author: JyotiS      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 163     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@ Dr.Apurva A. Tamhane. #398139.
Your reply is based on close observation of common people who do not have much resources and lives with no big dreams. Usually these people and women in general do not think much about women pride and independence as the harsh reality keeps on hitting them time and again. A mother, whose unborn child is killed just because she is a girl and she could not do anything about it is big enough to crush her pride. A daughter, whose father sold everything to give dowry to her in-laws and still their demand keeps on increasing; could she effort to have a pride? A girl who wants to study but is forced to stay and help at home, would she ever develop a sense of pride?

This is not the influence of western culture and neither is it the age old tradition; it is the pathetic state of our present society in which trying to reach a solution for a perfect life, we have made it more horrific. Why some of the members connecting these social issues with our tradition. Yes dowry was given to daughter at the time of marriage because she don't used to take her portion in paternal property but this was something that was willingly given to her but it has become a big social issue in the past few decades.

@Venkiteswaran, #398135
I agree with you that women in US and many European countries too have unequal status for women is their 'so-called' develop society. Women in those countries too face many issues that hurts their pride as much as in any other nation. They too deals with the issues of abuses, rapes, unequal treatment, and so on.

Further, why are we comparing our tradition with western culture? The question is about Indian culture and pride of a women. Indian culture used to be one of the best in the world but with time it too got degraded due to a number of reasons and now we are again on the path of recovery where whatever suits our society will be taken and rest all will ultimately left behind. I strongly believe that no tradition and culture can be perfect and best suited in complete sense for everyone.
Today women in our society who are stepping out to make a name for herself are dealing with a number of issues which were not present in older times and thus rules needed to be changed. She was safe and her pride was satisfied with limited things in the past but now a women takes pride in being independent along with her other desires.

________
Regards,
JS.


 
#398219    Author: Kalyani        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 37     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

In a healthy discussion on our culture and whether it safeguards the pride of our women or not, I think it would be nice if we pinpoint on our culture only without deviating to other cultures.

I do agree with the mention in some of the posts that Indian women held / hold some of the high positions in the society, she had a high place in the olden days and is called the better half of man. In fact even Lord Shiva is worshiped Ardha Naareeswar. But are the people of our society putting this into practice? Of course, I do have great respect for our culture, I am proud of our rich cultural heritage and at the same time I strive to be worthy of it.

However, I am sorry to mention that safeguarding the pride of women in our culture is just confined to the scriptures and not in practice since olden days. When we do have respect for what is mentioned in our scriptures and do not try to follow what is in our scriptures, then how can we think that the pride of women will be protected? I don't think so. If only it has to happen in our society, then first of all our people should respect our scriptures and try to imbibe the true essence from it and then strive to put it into practice. But unfortunately we are unable to do so.

For instance, people who happen to see a woman in modern outfits, unnecessarily they develop a feeling of hatred towards her just because she is in Western outfits. Some times women in such Western outfits are branded as perverts as well without knowing the facts. Why such a feeling towards women in Western outfits? Though such women directly won't effect others yet they are hated for no known fault of theirs. Why? Don't the women in our society have the freedom of choice, why such social inhibitions on women? It is wise on our part to brand the women who are not in traditional dress as perverts? Why can't we come out of such opinions. Dress is for the comfort of the individual and as long as a woman wears a decent dress as per her comfort be it western or traditional, there is no harm and she should be left to her choice.

It would be really appreciable if our people respect our scriptures and start practicing it in its true sense and give women their due place in the society and respect her with honest. Hope to see such good days soon in our society.

-----------------
Thanks & Regards
Kalyani


 
#398223    Author: Sukhdev Singh      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 13     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

The women of India wielded a lot of influence in the lives of great men of India even though they were uneducated in the modern sense of education. They can do wonders in the modern world when they have facilities for education like their men folk in the present day world. We remember the mothers of illustrated personalities like Sankaracharya, Ramakrishna, Ramana, Sri Satya Sai Baba, Ramatiratha and Yogananda and many others whose mothers were illiterate but they influenced their lives most. These women were great thinkers and philosophers in their own capacity. The same is true for mothers of all of us even today. This is what Indian culture is where the woman has the place of pride. We call the deity of wealth and education Saraswathi. The worldly riches and wealth is represented by Mahalakshmi. The source of power and energy is represented by Durga and Parvathi. Even our today's women are manifestations of all of these great women of the past. When we look at the plants in our courtyard or our home garden, we look for Tulasi and adore it. We call it Tulasi Mata or Mother Tulasi. A mother is considered more sacred than father in India in contrast to the western culture. Perhaps many of do not know that when there is Sraddha ceremony in Gaya, the priests offer one Pinda for father against 100 Pindas for mother. Such is the importance of woman in the Indian society and Indian culture.

"Teaching is my passion and sharing knowledge is my motto"
Regards,
Sukhdev Singh
Lead Editor Forums Section


 
#398230    Author: Saji Ganesh        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 42     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

I think there is total confusion about the concept of women's pride. Being able to conceive and become a mother may be a matter of pride for any woman. But then what about those who can't conceive? Should we consider that that they don't have pride? If motherhood is considered a matter of pride then why do you find so many girls today who do not want to get pregnant as soon as they get married? And what about all those abortions and foeticides where women play an equal or more important role than men? If motherhood is a part of her pride, then, I think, she should be experiencing almost the same feeling while being aborted and while being raped. Because both can be taken as attacks against her pride. Things are not so simple as it appears and may need more deliberation.

The next point is that man and woman have been considered as two wheels of a chariot. How can a chariot move smoothly if both the wheels are not same? So, here comes the point of equality. But then the question arises as to how can a man and woman be equal? There are so many biological, physical and mental differences. Therefore, such a comparison must have been drawn to bring home the point that both have equal importance.

Mythology may be partly based on actual happenings but we can't leave out the part that may have come from the imagination of those who have written them. But history is different. And history of India tells us a different story. Women have always been respected by the Indian society. But, I think it is not respect that she is demanding. Look at the responses of Kalyani, Jyoti or Sreejisha. You will find that there is an inherent quest for identity. Her pride will be safeguarded when she is considered as an individual. She feels bad when her identity is based on her relation with men. Somebody's daughter, somebody's wife, somebody's sister, somebody's mother and so on; this does not satisfy her pride. So, I think pride is something connected to freedom. It is related to a status where she rules without being questioned or guided. Now, this may be possible if we are to live as individuals, but certainly not when we are living as a family in a society.

Though not connected with the topic, I would like to make a mention about the wearing of outfits since that has been debated by many. Let me ask you a simple question. How much attention would a Saree clad English woman get on the streets of London? I don't think a skimpily, as per our standards, clad Indian girl in Delhi will get more attraction than that. It has got something to do with not being used to seeing such sights or seeing something that is not expected. If you ask me why it is not expected, you will have to wait for the answer.

You might find me contradicting some of my own observations, but that is deliberately being done to arrive at a logical conclusion. Let us move on.


 
#398231    Author: Ramakrishna Kambhampati      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 114     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

In my opinion it is not deviating to discuss the good and bad of other cultures in the context foreign culture is heavily influencing our younger generations at present. Culture is one thing which is passed on from one generation to other like hereditary. The norms and customs followed and put into practice by a society at a particular time develops into culture. In our culture there may be some bad practices and some of them were eliminated during the course of its development. Pride means not only self esteem or self respect or independence, the respect or honor what we get from others also. Dress code is one thing that a male or female get respect from others. I will explain this issue with a simple example. In movies we may find so many actresses may wear different kinds of outfits. We see many people commenting because of these movie only younger generation are spoiling. In South movies an actress Soundarya used to wear neat and tidy outfit Sarees only in every of her roles. We find heavy fan following used to be there for her in men, women, children and in old people. The respect she got among vast number of people through her dress code and the way she acts in her roles.

 
#398233    Author: Kalyani        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 37     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

@ Saji Ganesh, though you are going in line with my views, but I disagree with the mention in your response # 398230. I stand by the point that woman has high respect in our society but in the real life how many of the Indian women are getting their due respect. Besides identity, she should have the freedom to express herself and should stand by her words instead of getting carried away by impositions.

@ Ramakrishna sir, I strongly disagree with your views. Of course, I understand that dress code is important and one need to be decent in one's way of dress up. Yet it is not wise to mention that women in sarees get respect while those in western outfits do not. In such a case she is being imposed by the society for wearing a particular dress, so she cannot live as per her wish and she cannot dress herself as per her wish, it means that her feelings, her interests, her thoughts etc are being suppressed by the people in the society. So her pride (in context her feeling of pleasure by dressing as per her wish) is not being protected. Your example of Soundarya sounds absurd. Why women who wear western have no respect? Can you say that women in Western outfits are not good? Sorry sir, I strongly disagree your point.

Moreover, it is good to make a healthy comparison with the Western culture but it is not good to keep blaming the Western culture. The Western countries have their own culture and the people of those countries too feel proud of their culture. It is good to make a comparison with the Western cult only if one has a proper understanding and knowledge of the culture.

-----------------
Thanks & Regards
Kalyani


 
#398234    Author: Nadeem Naqvi      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 95     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

I agree to the title of this GD, "Indian culture safeguards the pride of women". But the question here is that, 'Is it really happening"?
No, is my response to the same. I strongly feel that the Indian culture is draining out on the question of respect for women. Mr. Sukhdev Singh has mentioned that as per the Hindu religion, the females are respected and their husbands are addressed by the names of their partners. Yes, it is true! But is it really being followed by the people of India? The respect of female is only in the courts, and political circles, but if the same female is found alone in a bus, railway station, isolated place, she is victim to molestation or rape.
It is ironical that we are creating deities and decorating them with expensive clothes and respect them, but the scaring fact is that in real life we are least bothered about the respect of the females. They are the lot, who have to live a life of fear.
Mohan sb, being the first to respond in this GD have mentioned that the clothes are the main reasons for the degradation of females. He has also mentioned that the females should change. I don't agree that it is the females only who have to change, it is the male who have to change the perception of considering the female as products.
The government should first pass a law that the females should not be used as products or attention catcher in the ads. The role of female should be considered to be Goddesses rather than just a Devdasi, which is what she is being treated as in the present times.

Regards,
Nadeem Naqvi


World without God is Zero without One!


 
#398244    Author: Saji Ganesh        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 42     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Kalyani, if we go by your response #398233, you have said that besides identity, she should have the freedom to express herself and should be able to stand by her words instead of getting carried away by impositions. That is exactly what I meant when I said in my response above that the pride of women is related to a status where she rules without being questioned or guided. In this context, a question by Aditya Das in his response #397990 has to be considered. 'How can a woman remain independent? By remaining attached to the family or detached from it?'. I think that this question has been answered by me when I said that a woman does not want her identity to be dependent on anybody else. But then as I have said in my response #397972, if safeguarding pride means that a woman should be respected as she is, then we must prepare for a structural change in the society.

 
#398255    Author: O Neela Kumari      Member Level: Silver      Member Rank: 3187     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Members, I am new to this website and this group discussion attracted me. I want to give my view points on the subject. Indian women have always been kept in good esteem by our ancient culture. They have been regarded as the symbol of running the family. In fact, it is the woman who holds a very high place in administering the families and households. Of course, the head of the family is known as father, but he is given this honour since he is the main earning member of the family. The things are changing very fast. The days are not far when both the mother and the father might be called the joint heads of the family. Earlier the mother's name was not written in the certificates issued for qualifications like SSC. Now the mother's name also must appear on many certificates issued by several boards and universities. However, much needs to be done go give the Indian woman its due place and pride.

 
#398264    Author: Sreejisha      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 305     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

@ Venkiteswaran

I did not intend to be sarcastic when I said Indians claim to have a unique,diverse and rich culture. We do have it and in the process of evaluating the ancient and modern systems I have tried to bring out the reasons why the present day practices have contributed to curtail freedom of Indian women. So I have not made a contradictory statement

Just like , Dowry wasn't evil then ,but it is now
Polygamy wasn't considered unethical then,but it is now. I would like to eloborate on Polygamy as this created the confusion. In present day polygamy in the form of extra marital affairs of husbands do nothing but hurt the pride of a wife deeply. I was not speaking in terms of the respect rendered by either genders who had more than one partner or discrimination of sexes
And speaking of characters in Epics, the respect to Rama had little to do with his marriage but due to the fact that he was a god

So I repeat, Indian culture hasn't caused violation of the rights of a woman but it has been tampered with and manipulated immensely by a large section of the society to befit the male population and restrain women from sharing their equality with men

Regards
Sreejisha


 
#398291    Author: Rajee      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 928     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Hi All,
It is a good discussion about the pride of women in our country. I like to share and contribute my views in simple words. The pride of anybody is the proud feelings of somebody. Here, the question is the proud feelings of a woman herself and by others about the women. India has a good culture and is proud of its women and speaks volumes about their pride in the books. The women are treated as Goddesses, and women Goddesses are worshiped by every Indian. These things are only pleasant to read and hear. In practice, the women's pride has been degraded from the birth itself. Infanticide of females as they are considered as a burden to a family. In a family, ill treatment of women by her in-laws after marriage due to dowry . Degrading and branding the women as weaker sex in the society. Insecurity of a women to move freely on the roads or travel in a bus or train independently in our country. Eve teasing and comments by male members of our society about their personality and dresses. Ill treatment by bosses and sexual abuses in the offices. The rich women are respected in a community and the poor are ignored. With all this, can a woman feel proud of herself being a woman, and can we say that the pride of women are safeguarded in India. I firmly say that the life of most of the women in India is not safe in this present India. Every woman has to walk on the roads with fear of attackers in mind. This is what the pride of women in India now.


 
#398302    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Hi everyone,

Great discussion going on a very good topic, Many members have paid their most wisdom full thought here. Most of them are with mix kind of response. Much discussion has been mainly emphasized on what Indian Culture is and what is Women's pride.

Friends, as per my limited knowledge, Culture is the way of living, faith and celebration. What was our culture is not exactly affecting any body, so present matter is what we culture we are having now and how it is affecting women and her pride.

During Ancient history women might have enjoyed a good designation and participation in society but later our culture got influenced by many intrusions and many other factors and somewhere we are towards globalization in matter of culture also.
Today we are having traditional festivals but new ways of celebration, even we have some way of traditional celebration, there we also have new festivals also.
So are the changes in feeling pride, we may have felt proud in living in home, we may have felt pride in having loads of jewelry and to be like a statue of beauty for a whole life, even we may have felt proud in following "sati".
But as with development of India, we shared every feeling with Indian men, we were part of freedom movement and that was encouraged by many leaders. We are part of political development from 50s to till date. We have welcomed women in forces too, in every department or field women have set an example. But here question is not about those countable women.

What our common society, common culture, and common people have for common women!

Here our so called civilized or cultured society becomes bi faced. Out of home men says it was great to have PM like Indira Gandhi, she was really bold in taking decisions, now our country require Indira like PM. But when they enter in home they argue with their wife that women is for kitchen and children only. She should not have any interest or involvement in other decisions. On one comment of wife he replies with example of his mother and says what is that she do not have.
Is this our culture protecting women!

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#398309    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 4

As other important point came from above discussion is dress code for women, Friends this is high time where we have to accept that we can't stop women to wear dress as per her choice. I am not favoring short dresses but these are not suitable for every occasion but for whole life a lady cannot be forced to wear what other want.
So let this not be a important part of this discussion. For this ladies please wear according to occasion and company you have. Our traditional dresses are good but men changed to comfortable dresses before us so can we, but please be sober and be respectful in eyes of viewer not merely attractive.

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#398312    Author: Harish      Member Level: Bronze      Member Rank: 5725     Date: 11/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Indian women have always been kept in good esteem by our ancient culture

 
#398322    Author: JyotiS      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 163     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@Ramakrishna Kambhampati in reply no. #398231.
I find your mention of film actress Saundarya a bit weird here. She might be wearing sarees in almost all of her movies and might have a big fan following but are you sure those fan following is just out of respect for her. How would those fans might have shown their respect to her if she happen to be with them in a crowd without body guards? I am not sure if she would have managed to come out of the crowd with her everything intact.
Now a days, sarees have been so much glamorized in movies that sometimes I find them even more annoying than a jeans. Tell me frankly, if two girls are walking on the road, one in a jeans and other in saree, who would face more comments and molestation? Further, who is more comfortable in running when the situation demands?

Saree is one of the most decent dresses in the world but why don't a man leave it on a women as to what she prefers to wear. 'Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder' similarly 'vulgarity lies in the eyes of the beholder' then why we keep on blaming everything on the dressing sense of a women?
Our pride lies in what we achieves in life and not on what we wear.

________
Regards,
JS.


 
#398331    Author: MONIKA KUSHWAHA      Member Level: Silver      Member Rank: 2387     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

My great thanks to Mr. Joseph for starting a g.d. ON SUCH A NICE TOPIC. THANKS INDEED.

I would like to say that our culture is a great culture indeed. It not include only the dresses we wear; but it actually is a combination of crystal clear mentality embedded in customs and rituals based on the rules our ancestors use to follow and those which are mentioned in our holy books.

I would like to impose a question to all who said that; women are free to wear whatever they wish to; that - how will you feel when you see an aged women wearing a high-cut dress?
Surely, it will be an awkward situation to be faced by you. In such a situation we all will feel that one should maintain the dignity of age. But while choosing dresses for our own we never think so.
I would like to say that we should also keep in mind of maintaining the decorum of our parents views by thinking that they are our well wishers; not competitors.

Our culture; our society; our country is doing many efforts to safeguard women. but it is also our duty to to protect ourselves. we should protest when something is going unusual; but we should also try to work according to our culture.

With regards
Monika Kushwaha


 
#398337    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

Friends, I think enough discussion has been done on the topic dress for women, please return to the main stream.
What all is happening with women as mentioned in response #398139 by Dr. Apurva, is no where justifying that our present culture is saving women or her pride.
It is true that few things from our culture and few borrowed customs have changed their faces, and are adding on to atrocities on women.

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#398365    Author: Ramprasad      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 26     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

The safeguards of women pride can only happen when the mindset and attitude of entire society changes towards women. As we all know the Indian society is male dominated and females are not getting enough recognition in all fields. Still people kills girls female feticides on knowing the delivery of baby girl In present generation men all-most of all age's readies to pass a comment on girls and women in all places starting from roads, buses, shopping malls and movie theaters irrespective of their .dress-code. In Indian society it has become the common practice of teasing women at all places, even though we introduce the Indian cultures now and makes people to give the awareness about respecting and honoring women. The same can't be followed when it comes to reality, well instead of going for cultures, it is necessary for all to change the mindsets of male dominating society and males of all ages towards the ill-treating of girls and women. The pride of women indeed in a danger as we have been witnessing number of assaults against women in all parts of the nation starting from villages to metro cities. The pride of women only safeguarded not by the introduction of new ordinances or bills but by the real practice of making people to follow the moral and ethical values, by tuning the mindsets of people and letting them to know the equal value of women in society. It is very unfortunate to say that the culturally superior country like India hasn't safeguarding its women pride even in this advanced world.

There are some things that money just cannot buy, like manners, morals and intelligence.


 
#398374    Author: Venkiteswaran.      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 17     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Dear participans,

Since my post no. 398153, a lot more posts are added. Many of them have a common underline.

Many members have mistaken notion that all that is practiced today as Indian Culture. This is where I basically disagree. What is practiced today is not our original cultural ways. Here and there one or two relics are seen that is all. Otherwise what we practice is mostly the borrowed and adapted version of the western culture.

Let me elaborate a bit: The 'Namaste 'is a unique one of Indian Culture. We greet others by folding both hands and say Namaste. Here the basic characteristic is not touching the other person. But what is practiced today? Shake hand, a hug or even kiss. By doing this can anyone say that he or she is following India Culture?

The marriage in Indian Tradition is called " Paani Grahan"- that is holding the hands. A grown up boy and girl are allowed to hold hands only at the time of marriage. Boys and girls shaking hands , hugging and kissing - IS NOT INDIAN CULTURE.. So following other culture thinking that it is Indian culture and then blaming Indian Culture is simply ignorance.

Unfortunately members take what they do as India Culture and then put in their arguments. As the title is of Indian Culture we have to know well what is Indian culture. Again I repeat that Indian Culture will protect the pride of women, but first let them know what Indian culture is and then follow it. Now all those who argued here against Indian Culture are mistaken about the basics itself.

It is like wearing dark glasses and complaining that it is dark outside.outside

==================================
Let us keep faith on ourselves and work sincerely, not leave everything to fate.


 
#398379    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Friends, it is not practically possible to keep all traditions in same format as they were. Change is unavoidable, we have to accept it with time. I respect one should have values and ideals in one's life. One should have respect for elders, but where in society we have boys as our classmates, as our colleagues, as our friends, we behaves with them according to type of contact we have with them. So it is not possible to do not have a hand touch even with a boy before marriage.

World is progressing and adopting many new things, new techniques are unavoidable same are with customs.

Friends, why everywhere we are questioning on girl's exposure to so called external world. Do we believe boys can never be mature enough to have safe society for women.
Please be open as a parent, as a brother, as friend and try to understand if we are proud of having all women like Lakshmi Bai, Indira Gandhi, Sunita Williams, or any lady whom you believe have done some thing which is believed to be good, they all can be remade if we allow our daughter to let them come to harness all resources which are available for boys!

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#398390    Author: Kalyani        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 37     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

@ Venkiteswaran sir
I am sorry to say that you have totally misunderstood the responses of the members and are deviating from the main topic. The discussion is not on the influence on western culture on ours but it is on the safeguarding the pride of our women. Its absurd, in what way following the culture of shake hands etc will affect safeguarding the pride of women?. And no one has mentioned these are in our culture. Sir, please try to understand the responses of the members in the discussion. Moreover, you need to understand the fact that change is evident - change in day and night, change in seasons, change in our own physical body and mind as well. When change is a natural phenomenon, we need to accept this fact and go according to the change.

For instance, the human body undergoes changes of various stages of life, though the mind does not accept the change, the body organs function according the change in age. The organs of an 5 year old child will not function as that of a 50 yr old human. So also, change in a culture of a society too is evident and the then generation of the society need to be at par with the culture and as long as the imbibed culture is healthy in practice, there is nothing wrong in it.

It is not the influence of the West but right from ancient times, there is no safeguarding of pride of our women. People speak of our rich culture and take pride in it but honestly speaking are the rich values of our culture in practice? Treating woman as her husband's better half is our culture and we Hindus worship Lord Shiva as Ardha Naareeswara but sincerely speaking how many men in India are treating their women as their better halves?

-----------------
Thanks & Regards
Kalyani


 
#398393    Author: Ramakrishna Kambhampati      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 114     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@Kalyani, JyotiS,
Both of you misunderstood my view I posted #398321 as one of my response in this debate. In this response I mentioned dress code is one thing that male or female get respect from others. In this context I mentioned, an example through how one gets respect from others. Usually in present day movies we find heroines or vamp characters wear vulgar dresses to attract mobs. The actress I mentioned whether she dresses the same decent dresses or not in her real life I don't know. Many years back she died in a Plane accident but still all ages of people still respect the dress code she followed in her roles when compared to other actress in this modern era. @JyotiS, The image formed of that actress dress code, the customs, the behavioral aspects of her roles themselves creating respect towards her and so I want to stress through this example in my response is to whether male or female dress code is important to get respect from others.

The other thing both of you misunderstood in my response is, I never mentioned Saree only most decent dress or any other outfit is not good. In my opinion whether male or female a decent dress which don't throw any vulgarity on the onlookers is acceptable.


 
#398400    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Sure Ramakrishna, what you said is right but why most of the time this is said in context of women only. When it comes to women security topic turns to her dressing sense. If this is so why even small or village girls are even raped.
Rape in Metro cities makes big news but there are much more number of rapes and other atrocities are faced by women in Villages or in small cities. In metro cities, our society questions our way of dressing, our freedom, our openness but what is the answer for all accidents and regular happening in villages.
Even 6 year girl got raped, I didn't get answer what was her fault her dressing, her openness or her freedom to play with her uncles.

Why we do not want to accept there are problems in all of us, why we are unable to make this clear to our brothers, to our sons that every girl is sister and daughter of someone.
Friends, we can never stop or even reduce such atrocities till we accept these are problems due to certain faith we have, due to weak mentality of our society that includes men and women both.

Till time we keep on saying old things were good, we should come back to those, sorry! no change in mind of society can come, even feel for any change is avoided by doing so. They take such reason as mere favor for continuing what they are doing. Girls are raped as they are going out side, they are wearing western clothes, they are going school, they are going to office.
Friends, girls will do this no matter such society want, this is something we can't avoid same as you boys can't.
If our culture is to wear saree or suits, to you culture says to wear kurta dhoti, if culture says no shake hands then equally this for men too. Mere reasons why this is happening is like favor for everything happening. How this should not happen is major issue?
And for that we cannot go back to the time of Aryans where women were in administration and were in political bodies too. We have to make out certain way in present society, with present culture which our country is following right now.

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#398402    Author: JyotiS      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 163     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

On response to reply number #398393, Ramakrishna Kambhampati,
Sir, I got your point. As this point was raised on the dress code of an actress, let me also mention a today's actress, Vidya Balan; She is always spotted clad in a Saree recently and I must agree that she is a good actress and a decently dressed most of the time. She may take pride in receiving best actress award for roles she did in quite a number of her movies but at least in one of the scenes in some of her movies (Parineeta, Dirty Picture, Ishquiya, Paa and so on) she has to shed her decent image for the scene requirement. What do you have to say about it?
I do not want to tag her in any way here but this was just a small response to you mention of actress Saundriya and her decent dress code.

I again want to stress that dress code in my opinion is not a symbol of pride that a women feels. A women as a pilot, a doctor, a soldier, a nurse, an athlete, a badminton player, a swimmer and whatever you may think of would take pride in wearing her uniform and displaying it with proud in front of everyone. We cannot expect a girl undertaking a swimming competition in a 'suit-salwar' or a saree or any traditional outfit.
In my opinion getting adapted to new changes in the society and being a survivor is the base of our tradition. Anything that remains stagnant for many years tends to start decomposing, so if we wish to keep our tradition alive in which a women will feel safe and proud of being associated with, we have to accept the change.

________
Regards,
JS.


 
#398407    Author: Sreejisha      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 305     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

After going through the responses of many memebers on this thread I have realized that the males are directly or indirectly blaming the influence of western culture and wearing of western outfits by women as the cause of her not being considered worth of respect!

So does that mean that all sari clad women are enjoying the highest dignity and appreciation in our society? Are they exempted from eve teasing and improper conduct by males in buses or in work places? When the basic human quality of humanity is not exhibited by those males exploiting even infants in the drive of lust how can our society demand women to follow our ancient culture which only comes secondary to humanity by all means?

Regards
Sreejisha


 
#398417    Author: Ramakrishna Kambhampati      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 114     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Jyoti S,
The impression the actress (unreality) she left on the people through her dress code in most of her films got respect for her is my view point but whether the actor plays some vulgar roles in some movies or not the question. Another point you mentioned is, dress code is not the symbol of pride. In this debate we are discussing Indian culture in relation to the pride of woman. Dress code is a part of any culture. Dress code is one of the positive thing which elevate the self esteem (an attitude of admiration or regarded highly)of a male or female. If a person gets appreciation from others the self esteem or self respect of a person get highly elevated. The other thing you mentioned is, the dressing code is related the purpose one wears. Definitely one has to wear or follow the dress code that it specially suited for that particular purpose. Already in my previous response I mentioned, for common people any decent outfit which don't throw vulgarity onlookers is always acceptable.


 
#398435    Author: Sukhdev Singh      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 13     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

According to Indian culture, the way our women dress should be such that it does not display the feminine features of a woman in a vulgar and awkward way. They can wear whatever they like but it should not make them look half naked as most of our film actresses do. The producers of the films use the girls to display their feminine features in such a way that would attract the attention of the male cinema goers. This exploitation of the young actresses by the producers and directors of the films should be stopped. When the film heroines wear gaudy dresses, other young girls in the society try to copy them and try to wear the same type of dresses. The dress of a woman should reveal her personality and not her body. The dress worn by a woman must make her look decent and beautiful and this can be done without displaying the feminine features of a woman in an awkward and unbecoming manner.

"Teaching is my passion and sharing knowledge is my motto"
Regards,
Sukhdev Singh
Lead Editor Forums Section


 
#398495    Author: JyotiS      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 163     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@ Sukhdev Sir, I totally agree with your statement, "the way our women dress should be such that it does not display the feminine features of a woman in a vulgar and awkward way."
I myself believe that one should dress up in such a way that the person wearing it is comfortable and the person looking at him/her is comfortable too but I do not agree when a man reasons out her dress when asked why was he eve-teasing a girl.

Yes, like women, not all men are alike. When there are some bad characters who do not follows any tradition or morals while disrespecting women, there are some good men also who strongly believes in our age old tradition, ethics and morals. And it is due to these men that women feel proud to be associated with.

________
Regards,
JS.


 
#398509    Author: Venkiteswaran.      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 17     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Now let me take a couple of posts which have some direct link to one or more of my earlier posts.

@ Sreejisha, I did not say that you were sarcastic. The wordings in your post gave an impression that you are contradicting yourself. But now it is clear from your clarification that you do not find Indian Culture wrong, but the practice is wrong and contaminated. Yes, here I support you- but make it clearer; mostly no one is now practicing the ways of Indian culture and tradition. Just because a person does something in India that does not make that action as Indian Culture. If somebody is worshiping in a Balaji temple in US or UK is it taken as US culture or UK culture to worship Balaji? Similarly a man and woman kissing in public or hugging or a woman smoking and drinking in a pub in India is not Indian culture , but some other culture.

If somebody sings 'Lord save the queen in India saluting his flag, then it is not Indian Anthem, and similarly if in another country, one salutes Indian flag by singing Jana Gana mana it does not become anthem of that country. What is well know and accepted as that country's unique only becomes that country's exclusive.

Saying Namaste,applying Chandan,Kumkum,haldi, , men sporting a tuft, women wearing flowers on hair are parts of Indian culture.
Chewing betel even for men is allowed only after marriage. It is to be take when the man and woman are alone in their nuptial chamber .

the lines, 'Maatru hasthena bhojanam, Pitru hasthena laalanan, Bhaaryaa hasthena Tamboolam.." ( for food –mother, for pampering – father and for betel-wife) shows that. Definitely smoking is not Indian culture.

(This is just to say that what is practiced by many today is not Indian Culture. The examples should be taken only to understand that point and not to applied to anyone and not to be taken as a generalization).

==================================
Let us keep faith on ourselves and work sincerely, not leave everything to fate.


 
#398532    Author: Sukhdev Singh      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 13     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

The pride which our culture has provided the Indian woman is incomparable with a woman living in any other parts of the world. Our culture has made our women an embodiment of virtue. Modesty and chastity are the ornaments of an Indian woman as compared with the women of the western world. The spirit of loyalty and sacrifice are synonymous with the Indian woman. When it comes to forgiveness, which can be the better example other than our women. The qualities of endurance and patience make the Indian woman supreme in the world. The encouragement and support an Indian woman gives to the husband and other members of the family even in the worst of circumstances and suffering speaks highly of the character of the Indian woman. Our culture and civilisation has survived for over 5000 years in spite of scores of foreign invasions and thousands of years of foreign rule. The Indian women have played a great role in the preservation of culture all these years. Our culture could not be erased by all these circumstances are primarily due to the virtues and the place of pride which the Indian woman enjoys in the society. Even today, when we practice our cultural traditions and customs relating to any social and religious ceremonies, the women are in the forefront. Our culture and the way our women have kept our culture alive is not a hidden factor from the history.

The mindsets of a few persons who look at our women with evil eyes ought to be changed. The woman may be physically weak by nature. But that should not be taken advantage of by men to attack them in any way. Our movies show this trend, where a group of goondas of a villain are sent to sexually assault a woman and humiliate her. Such portrayals of women's helplessness among the villainous characters should be stopped in our movies.

"Teaching is my passion and sharing knowledge is my motto"
Regards,
Sukhdev Singh
Lead Editor Forums Section


 
#398542    Author: Nadeem Naqvi      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 95     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

A good topic being wasted here.
Till now what all I have read in this GD is just argument and counter arguments about the femininity, clothing of the females, Indian culture, western culture, jobs for females, female problems, female in Hinduism, etc, wherein all the educated members here are not coming to the real meaning of the title of this GD, “Indian culture safeguards the pride of women”.
Why are we comparing our culture to that of western world?
Why are we not discussing the real image of female?

Education and the upbringing of females is most important and this has to be taken care by the females themselves.
REASONS:
1. All the females who are educated to a good level when married (including all here on this forum) when it comes to bearing a child they themselves are desirous for a male child, Why?
2. They should fight for the equal status of the girl child at home, which is not being done. No matter what all are saying here, but the reality is that the females are the ones who are creating problems for their whole lot.
3. The female cops are interrogating the victims of male atrocities, have you ever seen or heard how abusive they are?
4. In schools also the female teachers are favouring the male kids instead of the female students.
5. The female bill passed in the Parliament has made any change in the lives of the females. It was a lollypop which has made the females only to satisfy that they are in a position that they will be able to lead a meaningful life.
It is a vicious circle which the females are entangled in. One president and few chief ministers will make the whole change in the thought process of the females, no never.
As a person in chair the females are themselves the trouble creators for their own lot. Shiela Dixit’s driver misbehaved with a female in Delhi and tried to pull her in the official car, the case was dismissed in the just half an hour.
In the reign of Mayawati in UP there were number of cases of rape and atrocities against women, but what happened? Most of the times here own ministers were involved in the crimes and still she did not take the moral responsibility.
There are number of cases which can be written and make this response lengthy but it is of no use, if we are not discussing the real meaning of the title of this thread.

Education alone cannot change the way of life for the females, they themselves have to stand rock strong and fight to the atrocities which are being done to the females in any society.

Mindset is being discussed, who has to change the mindset. The females first! We the males are just opportunist taking all the advantage of the situation against a female. Many of my male friends will not like my statement but this is the reality.

Regards,
Nadeem Naqvi


World without God is Zero without One!


 
#398543    Author: JyotiS      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 163     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

@Venkiteswaran, Reply no. #398509.
Sir, quoting your words, "applying Chandan,Kumkum,haldi, , men sporting a tuft, women wearing flowers on hair are parts of Indian culture".
I am sure you too would agree that these cultural trends are slowly fading away from daily practices in our society.
Our tradition required man of the family to provide bread and fulfill all the requirements so that the women of the house may not have to step out of her house to procure them.

Time never remains same and so today if not all most of the women step out to fulfill her family requirements. And when she steps out she has to follow an official dress code. There is nothing vulgar about it, as official attire may be western in origin but covers her curves properly. A women wearing her company's outfit or dress code (even a man for that purpose) could be as traditional as anybody else here; we cannot justify tagging them by their outfit.
That is why I want to say that a society changes with time so does the norms and conducts but these are simply the trends added to our traditions. What we follow today would be seen as tradition for our fore-generations. With this change, a woman's dreams, desires and aspirations too changes and thus you could observe that she takes pride in different things in different generations. She might be taking pride in being a daughter, a wife and a mother in past and I am sure this is part of her pride at present as well but not completely; in present time if a women takes pride in being a working women or a well educated person, then we have to respect that. Our true Indian culture permits a women to have her own choice which could be predicted by the culture of 'Swayamwar' where a girl was free to choose her groom. I do not mean to say we should follow this trend now but at least give her a choice to decide the orientation of her life.

It is not wrong but just different and if everyone does not changes their views and conduct with this change then it will result is a more restricted society.

________
Regards,
JS.


 
#398544    Author: Kalyani        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 37     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

@ Venkiteswaran sir
Once again I am sorry to say that it seems you completely misunderstood the topic and once again in your response # 398509, the topic is deviating. You are pinpointing on our culture but you are not mentioning how this culture of ours helps in protecting the pride of Indian women. As per the mention in the your response - wearing flowers in the plaited hair, applying haldi and kumkum by Indian women - are these helpful in safeguarding their pride?.

@ Sukhdev sir,
I am sorry to contradict your views in your response # 398532. As mentioned in your response, I do agree that the Indian women have a high place in the society and the pride provided to her in our culture is incompatible with the women of other cultures. I have been repeatedly mentioning in my responses that all these are unfortunately confined to our scriptures only and not in practice since ancient times till modern days. Moreover, your mention 'mindsets of few persons' is disagreeable. It is not few people but majority of the people have such a mindset. And of course there needs to be a change in the outlook of our people.

Once again I would like to be firm on my point that I have great respect for our culture and I always strive to be worthy of it. I also understand that women have high respect and place in our society which is unfortunately in scriptures only and not in practice in real life.

-----------------
Thanks & Regards
Kalyani


 
#398546    Author: Nadeem Naqvi      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 95     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

@ Ms. Jyoti and Ms. Kalyani, I have seen in this thread that you too are saying that you are proud to be called as Indian, but you don't have faith in the culture. Which is contradictory here?
Please read my response (#398542) and respond as to how will you change the mindset of the females who are the root cause to the atrocities to their kind.
I would quote a court case here. The judge being a female imposed a fine on a lady who is a widow to submit the amount which was in lakhs as security and then only her appeal will be heard for. Now what do you think the female should do? Should she commit suicide or use illegal means to earn that huge amount in months and then she can fight for justice.
In Punjab a politician a female, aborted her own daughter and then killed her, because of her love marriage. What is this?
First the females should have faith in the system and should not have dual standards, as we like our culture but it is only in the books.
The females in India are the most respected, don't compare them with the outside world.

Regards,
Nadeem Naqvi


World without God is Zero without One!


 
#398547    Author: Venkiteswaran.      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 17     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@Nadeem, Kalyani,Jyoti:The discussion is not deviated. Why the topic mentioned 'Indian Culture'? It should have been proper to just "in India"
We have to dwell on the topic only. Hence I dealt with the word Indian culture.

If the topic is 'cat mews in high voice, do you agree or not' , then the discussion will be on cat, voice and mewing. Only when these terms are clear one can clearly discuss the topic.

I think the topic itself was given wrongly or mischievously.
As far as the topic is Indian Culture, I will discuss about Indian culture. Then only it will be properly understood. Please see my posts, I am well within the terms of the topic. It needs still more explanation from my side.
What I want to say is that Indian culture is quite unique like many other established cultures in the world. Only those who follow that can expect safeguards from that.

Even the modern law also gives remedies prayed to courts only if it comes under a particular law as prayed for. People who do not have respect to or do not follow the Indian Culture cannot expect others to behave responding by abiding by Indian Culture.

Hence my argument is if one follows the Indian Culture properly, the inbuilt safeguards in them will automatically take care of them. The present day crimes were only because of abandoning Indian Culture and adopting a different culture. Our old history or Epics do not have mention of rape,child abuse etc, which shows that these were not prevalent in those times. The culture thrust upon India after the foreign conquests cannot be called Indian culture. If history and culture are only to be calculated for a shorter recent period,many of the discriminatory laws had to be discarded. But they still exist quoting on the historic incidents. Hence applying a similar argument, I establish that what is practiced by many in present day India does not conform to real Indian Culture at all.

Individual freedom is also subject to terms and conditions only. One cannot expect benefits alone without subjecting to the conditions some of which may be restrictions also. The same is prevailing in all countries. This restriction has to be abided by for the smooth functioning of society.

If the topic is changed and the word Indian Culture is removed and made a different word, my discussion points will be different.

==================================
Let us keep faith on ourselves and work sincerely, not leave everything to fate.


 
#398564    Author: Saji Ganesh        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 42     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

I have been, in all my responses above, reiterating that there is no doubt that the Indian culture has lot of respect for the women. But the question is whether the Indian culture safeguards the pride of women.

I think it is basically a factor to be decided by a woman. We have men saying that they should dress according to the culture to gain respect, men say that she is losing respect because the women today is adapting to the western culture, men are saying that she is responsible for her safety, men are saying that they should fight for equality, men are saying that they should behave like women and so on. Now, this is exactly something which is hurting the pride of women.

Why can't they be allowed to take decisions in matters pertaining to them is the question. If a man can move around in whatever dress he feels like, why can't a woman be allowed to do so? If a man can roam around with his friends and come home late, why can't a woman do so? And, so many similar questions do arise. Why should anybody else decide what is that which ensures the pride of a woman. She has always felt that she is not free and this feeling has been hurting her for years.

Revolutions or liberation movements may have remained restricted to a particular circle, but, the feeling is there in every woman and it can't be helped. It is in this context that I am saying that neither Indian culture nor any culture of the world can safeguard the pride of a woman, the way she conceives it.

I hope I have not deviated from my earlier stand, but don't be surprised if I take a U turn when it comes to a conclusion.


 
#398566    Author: Amaresh      Member Level: Silver      Member Rank: 880     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Hi everybody,
in the present scenario of the nation, I feel that there cannot be a better topic than this to discuss upon. To start with I would say that I am in dilemma as to whether to go in a complete 'for' with the topic or a complete 'against' because the recent circumstances have made the Mother India lament in pain and agony.
There is no doubt that the Indian culture is one of such cultures in the world where woman is worshiped as a form of God. We pray Goddess Sita, Durga, Bhawani, Draupadi, etc.
However, on the contrary we cannot deny the fact that we belong to a country which has one of the maximum numbers of rape cases occurring in the world. Several other inhuman activities like the dowry system, the pardah system are also prevailing in many parts of the free India. We often find in news papers about the molestation done to women in certain places of the country.
Indians pray to goddesses in temples, but abuse women in the domestic sphere. They elect women to powerful political offices, yet mistreat young girls in public. Indian women participate in the genocide against female foetuses because the male dominated culture sanctions it. Thus, despite the fact that women have significant political clout in India, men who commit violence against women get away with murder.
The six rapists assaulted the girl on a moving bus, beat her boyfriend and dumped them off the bus. The police, according to many reports, took more than an hour to respond, while the bystanders stood watching and did nothing to help. Where are the Indians of modern India ?
The pathetic incidents has suddenly raised an opinion on the fact that if Indian culture really safeguards the pride of women?


 
#398569    Author: chintan      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 415     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

In my opinion, The main purpose of Culture is to safeguard not only woman but human being in whole. Culture prevents human society from evil values, evil clustomes & from animal life. Though woman in India is considered as Shakti, the face of present Indian culture is not optimistic for the pride of Indian woman. The situation is very worst.

The present condition of Indian Culture is influenced by Western Culture.

According to a UN report only woman literacy rare is 65.46% while National literacy rate is 74%. Is poor literacy rate is the pride of woman ? According to UNDP report Every birth of One Lac children, 450 mothers are dieing.

when culture is itself changing how could you decide that the face of present Indian culture is good or it is really safeguards the pride of woman or not ? Is woman existing for culture or Culture is existing for woman ? I think culture is constituted by man & woman, for man & woman.


 
#398570    Author: Bhakti Savla      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 25     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

@Ramakrishnan:
In reply to your post#398143, I will just like to say that this GD is about the pride of women and not family values. If men and women were treated as equal from beginning, India would not have faced the situation it is facing today. Why were rules and restrictions imposed on women like always covering face with pallu, giving dowry for marriage, no education if family can afford only male child's education, etc.? Please note that many of us have been lucky to live our life in cities, but there are many women who have suffered a lot in remote parts and rural areas of India.

@All:
The kind of situations in which women are living in several rural parts of India even today is not something any one will be proud of.
I have seen several posts mentioning that our Indian culture gives utmost respect to women and people have been giving examples of woman president and Goddesses. If someone reads our history carefully, they will understand how women have been treated over the years in India. There have always been restrictions on women. They are always expected to live their life as men want them to. Indian culture is the same in which a king was allowed to have several wives. Have we ever heard about a woman having several husbands in general Indian history?

I am not saying that several husbands or wives should be allowed. My point is that how can man even think of living with several women (as wives) and how can other people respect such a man? Why did Indian culture tolerate women living in a "pallu" for their entire lives? Why was rich men visiting places where women danced for their pleasure considered a status symbol in India?

Why did men marry second time in most rural regions when they couldn't have babies with their first wives without even checking whose fault it was?

Why has India seen so many cases of daughter-in-laws being burnt alive because of petty reasons like dowry, unable to conceive a baby, etc.? Have we ever heard of a son-in-law being burnt alive? The biggest reason why several Indian women have lost their pride is the "dowry" culture. It is such a bad thing that has been carried on for ages in the name of culture. Though the dowry practise has reduced to an extent in cities, rural areas still have this practise being carried out. Why on earth should a girl or woman made to feel that her family has to dish out all their savings just for her marriage? It makes a woman feel ashamed that she was born as a girl in India. Majority of the rape cases are reported in rural parts of India where women are fully clad with clothes. How can any man justify such a heinous crime?

Thanks & Best Regards,
Bhaktee


 
#398590    Author: Preeta Saini      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 624     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

@Kalyani: I have edited my post mam, but I am sorry to say that I get enraged when I think of atrocities and inhuman acts done on women. Will take care of my emotions!


@Nadeem Naqvi: In response to #398542, I agree that education and upbring of females needs top priority, but completely disagree by some of the points:

Point #1: This statement is not true. I always craved for a baby girl. So, it should be some, but not ALL. And this is basically due to the pressure some women get from in-laws or society, though this scenario is now changing. I have seen childless parents adopting a girl child, rather than a boy.

Point #2: Most of the girls are getting equal status, some of them even being treated or pampered more than their brothers.

Point #4: Being a teacher, I would like to enlighten you that its the other way round. Today, girl students are being encouraged a lot.


 
#398598    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Members I believe enough discussion has been done on what was in our history.

"We cannot change History, but we can make our future".

Those who are still commenting over women dress or her over exposure to western culture, we accept that very few of us are going in wrong direction!

Now please accept same story is not for all women, more are those who are restricted and know the difference in movie or advertisement world and in our practical life. If we keep on discussing the same till closing day we will have our GD in same place where first response was posted.

Please understand that was first and quick reaction, now enough discussion and thought have been given to this matter, PLEASE take this topic to another level.

In this regard, Venki Sir, this is right that you are discussing about Indian culture, very much related to the terms used in topic, but with best regards I want to share my thought this is something we cannot follow. Please relate our culture to our present and then only we would be able to get convinced to follow these very good deeds. For example, with time our saints like Swami Vivekananda wanted our youth to take part in sports inspite of doing old pooja rituals for hours.
He believed in religion very much still he believed in development of country and human race. Saying anything, we should do this because this is our original culture will not be enough to us, we should do this because this will help us in gaining what we want, what our society want and what will help in saving women no matter she is in home or outside.

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#398601    Author: Ramprasad      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 26     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@Bhakti, I agree with your views and even like to add some more points. Well in India only after the death of her husband women will be ill-treated in the society, she loses all her independence and powers that have came through marriage, she even kept asides from attending marriages and other functions but the same practice can't be done towards men on losing their wives. We heard the name widow all the time since years which represents the lady, but we haven't ever heard the word male –widow till today. I think starting from the ancient time and even in our Indian cultures women have been forced to follow some kind of restrictions and have been harassed by men and the same has been continued in this present advanced world. Equal opportunities for women in all fields may bring some kind of change regarding honoring their pride and the society has to change themselves in the way of behaving and treating women and girls. We can bring the change in cities but to attain the change in rural areas awareness programs have to be conducted in all villages to make the public to realize the necessity showing respect toward women.

There are some things that money just cannot buy, like manners, morals and intelligence.


 
#398608    Author: Amaresh      Member Level: Silver      Member Rank: 880     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

There is plenty of speculation about what it is about men's attitude toward women in India, as well as women's place in society there, that could produce a situation like this. One thing's for sure, it's not uncommon.
women staying in India for long periods of time deal with the fact that being a Western woman in India is a lot more complicated than being a Western man there.
Just after the hostile incident in Delhi a reputed politician tweeted that nice girls don't go out at night with men and get on city buses. They also should not fall pray to the West with its skimpy clothing, loose morals, premarital sex or other choices that women are allowed to decide for themselves in most countries.
India, with its stated goal of equality for everyone, is supposed to be one of those places. Though it's not a revolutionary thought, there is no excuse for raping a woman or a man, and then beating them almost to death. If this is the mentality of the people than I have a definite doubt in mind as to weather Indian culture be ever possible to safeguard the pride of women.
A mass awareness program is need which I feel might invoke the little human instinct present within these devils of our society.


 
#398611    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@ Nadeem Sir,
1 - All the females who are educated to a good level when married (including all here on this forum) when it comes to bearing a child they themselves are desirous for a male child, Why?

Answer: Now these are lesser,as we want to struggle against but still those who are thinking so are those who felt defeated because of type of social pressure we have felt on us and found that nothing is readily accepted in this society, even my daughter has to do same sacrifices and will have to bear same. More fear is about I have to make money for her for dowry, I have to ask her for doing many adjustment in her life, I have to send her to another family and for there I have make her understand that she have to forget herself and follow what all other says and want. This is if most secure life she got other possibilities are more.

2.They should fight for the equal status of the girl child at home, which is not being done. No matter what all are saying here, but the reality is that the females are the ones who are creating problems for their whole lot.
Dear Sir, what all we are getting is because of our mothers only. They have struggled and make this world to understand that education is important for us, we too have to stand up in society and to be self development. Our father or grandfather were never so much concerned till our mother raised this to our father. For this they have faced initial resistance and still made this to this extent.

3.The female cops are interrogating the victims of male atrocities, have you ever seen or heard how abusive they are?
Hmm, they are abusive equally as males do. Sir, if a bridge is going to sink, you know that and ask people with love and slowly in nice manner not to go upon, they will never follow you. Same is with policemen or women, when they start with a abusive word and says the same with a stick in hand, crowd stays where it is and even people on bridge empties place within second. To be abusive and strict is part of this particular type of job this should not be taken as any mindset for women.

4. In schools also the female teachers are favoring the male kids instead of the female students.

There are not, schools I have seen. May be if somewhere, there reason can be given by somebody who are in such situation.

5.The female bill passed in the Parliament has made any change in the lives of the females. It was a lollypop which has made the females only to satisfy that they are in a position that they will be able to lead a meaningful life.It is a vicious circle which the females are entangled in. One president and few chief ministers will make the whole change in the thought process of the females, no never.

Anything will not change over night, for everything a period is required. I am not saying this bill will do same for every women but will make certain difference in policies and acts for women. One president or PM like Sonia Gandhi and few CM can't change, but we can and we will with your kind help!


Mindset is being discussed, who has to change the mindset. The females first! We the males are just opportunist taking all the advantage of the situation against a female. Many of my male friends will not like my statement but this is the reality.

Many thanks for accepting males are opportunist, so we are trying to change this opportunity and surely we together will. This is also an opportunity to support us, it depends on mindset only, seek this also as an opportunity! This will help males in having proper respect in eyes of today's women.

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#398631    Author: Nadeem Naqvi      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 95     Date: 12/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@ Venkiteshwaran sb, your logic is good but you see for yourself that the topic is being distracted to all the other segments which are problem rather than solutions.

@ Preeti Saini madam, when you are responding to my five questions, then why are you contradicting the same? Please understand that the problems are revolving around the females and they themselves have to make a positive change.
When the females are getting education then why are they surrendering to the force of the in-laws? You all say that education is important for the females and the females are able to do what they like. But don’t you think that the females are acting like ostrich which is putting its head in the sand on seeing an enemy, without thinking its whole body is out. When the females are having all the positive aspect in life then why the things are not changing for them?

@ Chitra Rana madam, you talk about self development, what do you want to disclose from this? Aren’t the females developing in a positive manner? Confusion is the only process which is deviating the females from the realities of life! You say that the problems are because of you mothers, which I totally disagree to. Our mother’s have given us the best of education and they are the sole responsibilities which have carved us to be what we are today. There were not much of divorces in the past but the present system in increasing the numbers.
Your response to my third question:
QUOTE ‘3.The female cops are interrogating the victims of male atrocities, have you ever seen or heard how abusive they are?
Hmm, they are abusive equally as males do. Sir, if a bridge is going to sink, you know that and ask people with love and slowly in nice manner not to go upon, they will never follow you. Same is with policemen or women, when they start with a abusive word and says the same with a stick in hand, crowd stays where it is and even people on bridge empties place within second. To be abusive and strict is part of this particular type of job this should not be taken as any mindset for women.’ UNQUOTE
Same thing if the male is doing the he is abusing the females and if the female is doing it is right. Why the female cops not having sympathy and talk in a good manner to the victim?
Response to fifth question:
QUOTE: ‘5.The female bill passed in the Parliament has made any change in the lives of the females. It was a lollypop which has made the females only to satisfy that they are in a position that they will be able to lead a meaningful life.It is a vicious circle which the females are entangled in. One president and few chief ministers will make the whole change in the thought process of the females, no never.

Anything will not change over night, for everything a period is required. I am not saying this bill will do same for every women but will make certain difference in policies and acts for women. One president or PM like Sonia Gandhi and few CM can't change, but we can and we will with your kind help!’ UNQUOTE
Then how much time is required to change this system. Initially the female fought to have the right of education and then politics and jobs, but still they require time. Madam please get-out of the slumber and understand where the problem lies. When the females are holding responsible positions also they are not changing the situation for the females rather they are using the females to the best of their exploitation.

I agree that we can together change the live for females but before that the females have to finalise what they really want?

Regards,
Nadeem Naqvi


World without God is Zero without One!


 
#398641    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@ Nadeem Sir,

Jyoti, Klyani are proud to be Indian means we love to see our country developing, we love our rich as said original Indian culture, but we are moving with time and we want to have good things from our culture along with development. If there is no incident described of rape in our sculptors or Vedas nor they have described about what all political and social situations were at that time, what were social evils at that time. I have not read any Veda, but again as much I got from my elders of family and society and a bit from history book, Old religious book are about virtues only.

After Vedas, during Mahabharata and Ramayana, women situation is clearly depicted to all of us. Both have important incident where a women was not respected and those both women were queens not common women from public. So what might be happening in public can be imagined.

Again I am saying something which may be misunderstood as contradictory, I believe Ramayana and Mahabharata are great epic, will always be.

See, proud or believe in truth, honesty and religion is our culture. We respect that, but we do not accept that culture must include women with duppatta, bindi or women within home only.

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#398642    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@ Ramprasad Sir, has come up with a very good point that certain programs should run in villages or in rural areas.
I would like to add here that responsibility increases to us also, on youth and who are parent.
We should keep our surrounding clean and try to provide equality for every opportunity.
As a women, we have to keep struggling for our rights and we have to shed social pressure of dowry, partiality and discrimination.

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#398647    Author: Amaresh      Member Level: Silver      Member Rank: 880     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

Lets start an awareness program right through the ISC to safeguard against the exploitations done to girl child or women in general. Lets discuss about what we can do for the suffers and prevent sufferings.

 
#398648    Author: Amaresh      Member Level: Silver      Member Rank: 880     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Indians pray to goddesses in temples, but often abuse women in the domestic sphere. Its definitely due to lack of awareness and literacy.

 
#398650    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

@ Nadeem Sir, my words might have created some confusion I think. I didn't said our mother are responsible for partiality, infact I want to say that our mother have struggled much to provide what we have today.
If I am able to pursue college and able to do a job that's is because my mother stressed on my good education. My grandparents were never so much bothered for my education.
I am giving credit to our mother ! they have done a great job and have given so much freedom that now at least we have a say in our society. Till their time even such discussion were considered as rebel.

Dear Sir, we did almost hundred years long fight against a external ruler, who came around more 200 years back.

Women are in this situation from generations! And our fight is against our own society, against few women also.

We are clear what we want, and we are proceeding towards it but our society (including women whose thought process has died under social pressure and have accepted that being a girl mean we have to live in sheepish way) or opportunistic males taking every opportunity against us. So this is something where we want to have certain support, off course a women is not only a women but also a part of your family as mother, sister, daughter or wife.

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#398652    Author: Nadeem Naqvi      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 95     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@ Chitra Rana madam, your response (#398641), I object to your comment that the scriptures are not having incidents of rape or other problems which are to be found today.
Please understand that scriptures are the stories which have moral teaching but for the same you have to read between the lines. I would try to explain the same to you through the great scriptures of India—Mahabharat and Ramayan.
Ramayan: In this scripture there is an episode that Ravan carries away Sita. What happened to him in the end? He was killed by the husband of Sita—Lord Ram.

Mahabharat: The queen Panchali or Dropadhi was ill treated in the court of Dhritrashtr by his sons Duryodhan and Dushshasan, what became their fate? They were also killed in the end.

I just fail to understand as to what the females really want, or the illusion is so great that they are themselves confused!

You should understand and try to explain the remedies as to what should be done and how it is possible rather than just say that this has problem or that has problem.

In rage of emotions you all are forgetting that there are some limitation and you should understand what you are saying and posting here.

Regards,
Nadeem Naqvi


World without God is Zero without One!


 
#398653    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

@ Nadeem Sir, exactly same thing I told in my posting. Only good deeds were discussed there. That was particularly in response no- #398547 by Venki Sir, who is favoring original Indian culture, there he has mentioned that there was no story of rape or anything like that with women.

Thank you for clarify in good words what I wanted to say. My English is not very good, so it may be confusing at times. :-) I wanted to say same thing what you have told with addition that that time also there were certain things against women.

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#398654    Author: Nadeem Naqvi      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 95     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@ Chitra Rana madam, your reponse (#398650), yes that is right if you also meant the same thing about our mothers that they are the sole reasons for what are we today.

From where have you turned to the foreign rulers? Our scriptures and the life of females have been so for a long time, and the foreign rule does not have anything to do with the status of females. This is the confusion which I am talking about. Try to figure out what the females really want?
There was hue and cry against the dowry deaths and the government drafted a law as section 498 IPC. I don' t know about your age, but dear friend go to any police station of India and you will be surprised that this law is being used against the males in situations which are being created by the females herself but she holding males responsible for all negatives.

Regards,
Nadeem Naqvi


World without God is Zero without One!


 
#398656    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

I am in total agreement that now on we should discuss what all we want from our society, even what male want from women and society. We should also discuss about how these changes can be done.
Now we should discuss as responsible citizen, not as men or women. How and what all things are needed to be done to bring pride to women.

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#398668    Author: Preeta Saini      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 624     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

@Nadeem Naqvi: I am not contradicting, I am just saying that your statements are not true for all, but some.

@Chitra Rana: Kudos!

101 responses and still going! This GD has surely attracted many.


 
#398674    Author: Saji Ganesh        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 42     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Some of the responses above are creating a doubt as to what is the subject of discussion. The thread is to discuss the topic as to whether the Indian culture safeguards the pride of women. There ought to be changes in the culture from time to time according to the developments in the society and the change in life styles; but what about the basic Indian culture? There is no doubt that the responses are more or less revolving around the subject, but I think it is time to revert back to the specifics.

 
#398681    Author: Ramprasad      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 26     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@Chitra Rana, do not post two serial responses, wait for l the response from fellow participant then only post your response.

Even though the topic of this GD contest is Indian cultures acting as safeguards for women pride we members got deviated from that topic. Yes in present fast moving world cultures can't be singly safeguards the women pride. A girl or women once stepped outside the home have to face lots of struggles and ill-eyes during her outside moment whether she have to go for college or for work. We have to recollect the words of father of the nation, Mahatma Gandhi; whenever a girl safely and freely moves on the streets even at midnight on that day only we will get experience the real feeling of being Independent but till today is this possible in India, means we aren't yet got independence according with Mahatma Gandhi. Starting from the family, educational institutions, working areas in all parts of the society the genera discrimination towards girls and women have to stop. Women should get all rights and equal opportunities and mostly equal respect in the society. Government should come forward for the safeguards of women by increasing their representation in all fields mainly in political sector. We even need more number of women police staff and police stations to deal with crimes and assaults against women and even the introduction of fast track courts for quick trailing and the verdict delivery in women cases somewhat bring relief in the present worst situations.

There are some things that money just cannot buy, like manners, morals and intelligence.


 
#398684    Author: Rajkumar P      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 408     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 4

Hi,

India is a country of culture.We follow the culture and our tradition.
Though western styles have greater influence in our younger generations they know our culture too.
India is surely a safe country for girls when compared to other countries.We do have some flaws happening but we have more secure life in India.
Government also takes necessary steps to safeguard girls in all situations.We have rules that no women should work after 8 PM in our capital city.Similarly we have so many acts which favor girls but people are not aware of it.
We (MEN or Women) are "BORN TO FIGHT " .So its better to fight for justice.


Thanks

Rajkumar P.
IT Professional


 
#398697    Author: Ramakrishna Kambhampati      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 114     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Many members contributed their responses to the question in debate. Through healthy discussions we can make this GD still more lively before the time given closes. During the course of discussion I raised few points in my responses but I didn't got proper clarifications to these points. So, I request the members especially who are supporting Indian culture will not safeguard the pride of a woman to answer so that some clarity comes to the discussing issue.

1. Your argument is Indian culture suppressed woman and restricted woman to the four corners of the house. Indian culture damaged the pride of a woman. Many members of your group argued how woman were affected by following the Indian culture. My question is, whether Indian culture in any way helped in elevating the pride of a woman in reality in your view? I think there may be some goodness in Indian culture that may help. Culture is something the customs and practices followed by the society. But don't say our Indian culture is good but in practice we are failing.

2. At present we are not following our pure Indian culture but it is mixed culture of Indian and western. By following this at present do you think is it some what helped in elevating the pride of a woman to some extent when compared to restricting woman to the four corners of the house?

3. Many Indians especially elders, elite persons are of the view the tendency of youth to follow western culture is the route cause for spoiling of our youth. Some members arguing western culture in no way concerned with safeguarding the pride of woman. But there is a lot of link of culture with the behavioral attitude of an individual. Many believe that due to strong tendency of our youth to follow western culture drinking liquor, smoking, intake of drugs and narcotics, jolly moving and living together attitudes of both male and female with no purpose, immoral relationships, pub culture, rave parties are the result. This will definitely spoil the behavioral attitude of both male and female. In my opinion there is no need to show any difference in marking these individuals (male or female) spoiled due to following bad culture. Some of our members arguing following western culture or mixed culture is no way concerned with the safeguarding the pride of woman. In your view how it is possible?


 
#398702    Author: JyotiS      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 163     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

@Chitra Rana, you have taken a very appreciable stand on behalf of women of today.

@Ramprasad Sir in your response no. #398681, I find one line very appealing and basic of this whole argument 'In present fast moving world cultures can't be singly safeguards the women pride'. This is what everyone is directly or indirectly trying to say and you summarized it is just a few words.

In reply to #398652, Nadeem Naqvi,
In our culture, (Ramayana) Sita Mata took pride in following her husband for 'Vanvas'; but the same husband who killed Ravana to bring her back, left her when she was pregnant and needed him the most. He brought her back to satisfy his male pride. And after many years, when she confronted Sri Ram, her pride was not to let him even touch her even if she has to die for that purpose.

In Mahabharata, Draupadi's pride was crushed to ground when her own husband lost her in a gamble game. Why people says, Mahabharata, the battle, occurred due to Draupadi, I say it occurred due to Yudhisthira and why we call him 'Dharamraj', he lost this title at the very moment he could not fulfill the 'Dharam' of a husband.

Do you feel proud of such incidences in the history. Ravan kidnapped Sita mata to take revenge of misbehavior Sri Ram and Lakshman did with his sister. He did totally wrong but still he projected some decency and decided not to touch her without her permission and did not even took her inside his 'Mehal'/fort without her consent.

@All,
Every time a girl is denied a right of schooling, or mis-treated, raped or molested or killed/abuse for dowry, our culture cries silently. No culture can be perfect without any loop holes, we have to accept the best and reject what is degrading our present day society so that we may leave the best culture and traditional practices for our future generations.

________
Regards,
JS.


 
#398705    Author: Amaresh      Member Level: Silver      Member Rank: 880     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

A few days before we ushered in 2013, an Indian-Punjabi rapper called Honey Singh became embroiled in controversy when a concert in Delhi, where he was due to perform, was cancelled after an online campaign against him. There's no doubt about the offensiveness of the lyrics he is accused of spewing, some of which feature vile rape fantasies (Singh now claims they weren't his songs), but the furore teased out bigger questions: how did a man associated with such material become so popular, and why did Bollywood accept him as its highest-paid songwriter?
Most Indians bristle at the accusation that Indian culture doesn't value women. In fact, they say, it extols the virtues of womanhood and their role in society. It puts women on a pedestal, and even goes as far as describing nature and the world we live in as "mother Earth", and "mother India". Indians elected a woman prime minister, Indira Gandhi, as early as 1966, and the country boasts several prominent female chief ministers, philosophers, scholars, sports icons and writers. During one very popular Indian festival, Rakhi, brothers pledge to protect their sisters for life. Hindu mythology, which is dominant in Indian culture, is full of tales of kings moving heaven and earth to rescue damsels in distress.
The gang rape and murder of the Delhi student wasn't an isolated incident. Reading the descriptions by Indian women of how they live in fear should make anyone worry deeply about the twisted beast that Indian culture has become. Most of all it should make my kind – men of Indian origin – sit up and ask: how did we get here? The epidemic of violence is obviously not good for women, but doesn't it also say something about the state of mind of Indian men that such crimes are on the increase?


 
#398710    Author: Sukhdev Singh      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 13     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Just give a little thought to this. Can a home be really called a home without a woman in it? I do not think so and many of you will agree with me that a home is incomplete without the presence of a woman in it. We can read a great lot about the importance of women in the Indian society. Have you ever read about the importance of men in the Indian society? I do not think there is enough available literature on this subject. As far as Indian women are concerned, we can read about them even in the writings of foreign historians and travellers to India like Magasthanese, Al Baruni, Fahien, Hu Yan Sang and others. These foreign writers have written a great deal on the subject. It is true that our women had suffered during the Turkish and Muslim invasions of our country. Many women had to sacrifice their lives due to cruel treatment meted out to the Hindu women by these invaders. The purdah system among women of several north Indian Hindu communities was the result of these atrocities committed on Hindu women by the invaders from the West Asian region. Our culture gives a great regard to the Indian women which was not available to women of some other parts of the world. Some of the religions even do not allow the women to visit places of religious worship. There are sketches of women in the Washington museum showing the ill treatment meted out to the women of the other parts of the world just a few centuries before Christ. Even in the eastern countries of China and Japan the women are not given as high a regard as we give to the Indian women in our country. Our culture is always there to safeguard the pride of our women.

"Teaching is my passion and sharing knowledge is my motto"
Regards,
Sukhdev Singh
Lead Editor Forums Section


 
#398713    Author: Kalyani        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 37     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

What makes the culture of a country?
The traditions, language, family and marriage systems / laws, festivals, dress style, mythology, food habits etc make the culture of a country. In a nutshell it is the 'way of life' of the members of the society which includes ethics, values, beliefs, traditions that are carried from one generation to the other. During the course of time due to various factors, one of which is the external influences, the culture undergoes several changes and thus cultural change is evident as explained in my response # 398390.

The debate contest is on a specific topic and in a debate some members will support while other oppose. The responses should be taken in a competitive spirit and absolutely no personal feelings and no gender discrimination. As per the mention of few members in their posts who mentioned that no faith in the culture or cat mews in high voice or females are the root cause is not wise and justified here.

Request: Please do not get into personal feelings but try to make this a healthy debate for the welfare of the society.

As per the title which is in simple present tense, the concentration is on the present and for a better future of the welfare of the society. Accordingly, culture of a country can be defined as the predominating attitudes and behavior of the members of the society.

Almost every day in the newspapers or TV news channels, one can read or watch at least one news on dowry harassment, domestic violence, sexual abuse, female feticide, dowry death and others which are seen in one corner of the country or the other. Such cases are still prevalent in the country or so to say are on the increase. Can these be called as safeguarding the pride of women?

Our government and even various non-governmental organisations too are striving to bring gender equality and has done great things for women and tried / trying to uplift the women of our society by all means. But unfortunately the mindset of our people has not changed at par with laws. Of course, a change in attitude should come from within the heart. The essence of the cultural ethics should be properly passed on from generation to generation so that it can be followed in the right way. When there is mutual respect among the members of the society, protecting the pride of women can be achieved to a great extent.

-----------------
Thanks & Regards
Kalyani


 
#398735    Author: Ramakrishna Kambhampati      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 114     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@Bhakti Savla (#398570), Family values, social ethics, social customs etc are part and parcel of the culture. These values influence behavioral pattern of individuals of a society and this in turn will influence the human values of the society. This is the key factor which affects the building up of good or bad society. In a good society people (male or female) understand each other, give respect to each other and in such a society and culture will safeguard the pride of male or female. So, I don't agree family values have no role in safeguarding the pride of woman. If you go through the third point of one of my response(#398697) to this debate you can have a clear idea about the point you raised.

 
#398744    Author: Kalyani        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 37     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

Several factors influence the culture of a country which mostly result in a cultural change of the country is a fact. As there is a change in period, the culture of the country goes at par with the periodical change. It is always good to carry on the good practices of the culture and discard the social evils if any.

To quote the example of our great social-religious reformer Raja Ram Mohan Roy - the founder of Atmiya Sabha and Brahmo Samaj played a key role in fight against some of the social evils and fought for the uplifting of women in the society. He played a key role in abolishing Sati and education for women and fought for women's rights. Thus he tried to safeguard the pride of women in our society by abolishing some of the then prevailing evil practices.

Whenever there are some bad practices in the society which prove to be detrimental and act as a hindrance for the development of the society and such practices should be discarded from the society for a healthy and peaceful co-existence of all the members of the society.

There are still women atrocities in our society which need to be abolished gradually for building a better society and a stronger nation in the coming years.

-----------------
Thanks & Regards
Kalyani


 
#398755    Author: Venkiteswaran.      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 17     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Having put my views in many posts in this GD, now for the convenience of a totality, let me summarise my views on this GD topic.

I stand in view that Indian culture has its inbuilt mechanism to safe guard the pride of women provided the culture is followed sincerely.

@ Kalyani,in her opening post first itself (post no 97927 ) agreed with the topic statement when she said as opening lines "It is true that ours is a rich culture which safeguards the pride of women. But unfortunately this is not in practice by our people though it is in our culture." But unfortunately she contradicted herself and disputed my views when I explained that today our rich culture is not practiced at all today. Just to explain that, I mentioned some of the common identified symbols of our culture. So my stand that, it is not a fault of the culture itself, but the failure of people (both men and women) to follow and practice our culture is thus accepted by even those who expressly oppose it.

@ JyotiS who also have opposing views on my stand also indirectly lent support to my views by admitting that there were remedial measures available in tradition to solve problems faced by women-when she wrote in her post(no. 397974 ) that there used to be no concept of divorce in Hindu marriage but that does not means that every marriage was a successful one. What kept everything going smoothly was the support of the family for the women. There used to be 'panchayat' system where every dispute was resolved smoothly and the pride of a women kept intact."

@ R. Gautham Shenoy (post no. 397975) was forthrightly concurring with my views in his lines "I strongly believe that the pride of woman is safe guarded by the culture of India. Here both men and women should follow good culture to avoid these type of brutal attacks on woman."

@ Chitra Rana (post no. 398598) inter alia says about old Indian culture "I want to share my thought this is something we cannot follow".
So what is the point in expecting that something which cannot be followed can come to one's help? This again proves my stand that it is not the culture at fault, but our inability to follow the traditional culture.

@Saji Ganesh vide his post 398230 mentioned that
" You will find that there is an inherent quest for identity. Her pride will be safeguarded when she is considered as an individual. She feels bad when her identity is based on her relation with men."

Let me respond to this as:
This great country did not respect and accept great following legends and personalities by relating to any men. They had been and still being accepted and respected for their own accomplishment.
Jhansi Rani, Captain Lakshmi, Indira Gandhi, Sarojini Naidu, M.S.Subbulaksmi, and of those in current days, Speaker Meera Kumar, Ms Mayavati, Ms Jayalalitha, Lata Mangeshkar, Shabana Azmi, P Leela, P.Sushela, S.Janaki Shanaz Hussain, Chanda Kiochar. The list can go on..

In fact many of the readers will not even know any men related to them and know only the women for their abilities, leadership and contributions or posts they decorate.


As a last point to add more convincing to my stand, I put forth this:
Ayurvedic and other medicinal systems are I vogue and found useful to cure many illnesses . But unfortunately when a modern disease "HIV Aid" appeared on earth, none of these system had the cure for it. This is because, these medicine systems never expected such a disease , which is human made and spread by unbridled ways of ills and vices.
One cannot blame Allopathy or Homeopathy or Ayurveda that they cannot safeguard the patients.
However Ayurveda had a very good immunity giving medicine called 'Chyavanprasha". Ayurveda expects people to follow certain norms and guidelines. Ifpeople do not follow those guidelines and contract a very novel unthought of disease, how can the good system be blamed?
Alopathy doctors ahs asked people to use protection and desist from unknow relationships. Can someone say that it inhibits their freedom and by throwing it contract the disease? Is it prudent?
Same with our present case.
Saji Ganesh in his post mentioned "So, I think pride is something connected to freedom. It is related to a status where she rules without being questioned or guided. Now, this may be possible if we are to live as individuals, but certainly not when we are living as a family in a society."

My answer to this is:-
Yes ultimately it boils down to that. Freedom- freedom as thought by the individual women. I do not object to individual freedom. In fact that is necessary also. I disagree with only one point. That, the many women while demanding freedom do not want to be under any restrictions or controls, whatever that be.

Freedom without controls and restrictions is anarchy. This is true for a country and true for its people also. When women want some special considerations as indeed their problems are different from that of men, they also should follow restrictions also.
If one wants to keep his valuables safe, one has to keep it properly secured. Not listening to the safety instructions, but wanting the things to be safe is either foolish or just defiance. Both cannot be accepted as the consequence will be disastrous and they should be ready to face it without blaming about the instructions.

I request all the participants who argued that the Indian culture cannot safeguard the women's pride, to ensure they really follow the Indian culture. If then something goes wrong, only hen can they blame the culture.
This is like a blind person searching for a black cat in a dark room.

I think I have made myself clear..

My thanks to all participants .

==================================
Let us keep faith on ourselves and work sincerely, not leave everything to fate.


 
#398785    Author: Sukhdev Singh      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 13     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

The most important role a woman plays in our society is that of a mother. However, our heads hang in shame when a few sons of these mothers forget the lessons which the mothers had been giving them since the time of their birth. They forget the ethical and moral values which had been taught to them and indulge in activities which are against the cultural values of our society. They forget for a moment that the women they attack physically or assault them sexually or try to degrade them in any other manner, are also the mothers, sisters, daughters or wives of some one as they have their own. They forget that the woman is created by the God not to sub serve their ego but has been created so that both of them could serve the humanity in their own way. The God has given them feminine features to serve a particular role in the society. Of course, they have been created frail and weak by the nature, but the men should not take advantage of this natural weakness of theirs. Man becomes aggressive by nature. On the other hand, the women are calm, patient and receptive. But the women are not less intelligent than men and this has been proved time and again. Our culture has kept the women in high regard. The women have been glorified in our epics and puranas. Their service in the society is more important than men. Today's women do not only serve the husbands, bring up and look after the children, administer the house and look after the in-laws, but also work like men outside the house to augment the income of the family. Their place in the society is the place of the pride and the men who think it otherwise and still think that the women only play a secondary role do injustice to their mothers who have given birth to them.

"Teaching is my passion and sharing knowledge is my motto"
Regards,
Sukhdev Singh
Lead Editor Forums Section


 
#398807    Author: Saji Ganesh        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 42     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

I think things are boiling down to the point where I expected it to come. Let me begin by trying to answer Ramakrishna kambhapati #398697. Firstly, I don't think Indian culture has in anyway tried to elevate the pride of women as conceived by them. We have always respected women and in doing so were satisfied that her pride is taken care of. Secondly, with the cultural values getting diluted because of modernization, I feel that women have changed their attitude and that has in turn changed the attitude of men towards women. Thirdly, with the influence of western culture, the concept of pride of a woman has changed but it has only helped in widening the gap between the two genders. I know that my answers are not clear cut, but just pointers to the final solution.

If we go through the responses, we can find that there are two arguments drawing attention. One is that Indian culture safeguards the pride of women provided that she lives within the cultural barricades. Another is that she is an individual and her pride will be safeguarded only when she is free to take her decisions irrespective of the changes in cultural standards. Both views cannot be discarded totally.

Venkiteswaran sir has given a good explanation of his view. He has mentioned the names of some prominent women who had made a mark for themselves. But, I doubt whether pride has got anything to do with position. To give an example, let me ask a question. Suppose one of these women is attending a function and a man makes an indecent gesture or tries to touch her, will her pride be hurt? In my opinion, when we are talking about the pride of a woman, I think we are talking about a plain woman and cannot associate her status or position with that individual capacity.

Sukhdevji, I am not debating your views, but could you tell me whether there is an identity for a woman who is not related to her roles as daughter, wife or mother?

I think the difference is something like where I give Rs 10/- to a person and tell him to buy whatever he want to and giving him Rs 10/- telling him that he should buy only a particular thing. In both the instances, I am giving ten rupees. In the first instance I am giving him the freedom and is respecting his choice. His pride is intact. In the second instance, by placing a condition, I am restricting him and is creating a feeling in him that since it is me who is giving the money, my dictate will be binding. This will hurt his pride. Now, he can either be happy that he has got the money or can feel bad that the money was given conditionally and so his freedom was encroached upon. So, I think all this talk about pride has got a lot to do with how we think about it.


 
#398814    Author: Nadeem Naqvi      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 95     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@ Jyoti Madam,
Life is not that easy as you have tried it in your arguments in your response (#398702) which is reply to my response (#398652).

Ramayan: your perception and understanding the epic Ramayan. QUOTE: 'In our culture, (Ramayana) Sita Mata took pride in following her husband for 'Vanvas'; but the same husband who killed Ravana to bring her back, left her when she was pregnant and needed him the most. He brought her back to satisfy his male pride. And after many years, when she confronted Sri Ram, her pride was not to let him even touch her even if she has to die for that purpose.' UNQUOTE

You have undermined the sacrifice of Ram and Sita both. I would request you to kindly go through the scriptures again and understand the root of the same. Here if I would discuss the whole then this thread will be close but my response will still be in the process of typing. Who had instigated the punishment on Ram to roam in the woods for 14 years? It was a female (his step mother) who forced his father to announce the punishment for his eldest son so that her own son could take the throne. Sita accompanied her husband to the woods and there the episode of Ravan took place. Ram killed Ravan and got Sita back. All these series of incidents prove that Ram was the real king who has all the respect for his family. But the king has some duties towards his men also and he to keep the common man satisfied sacrificed his family as left Sita. But what a pity for Ram that after thousands of year, one of his own follower is accusing him to be an apostle who had committed mistakes in his life. Ram acted as a son, husband, friend, a man above the human nature of lust, (Suphnakha episode), a King, etc, showing all the qualities to the world as to how one has to lead his life in compliance to the roles bestowed on him.

Mahabharat: your response on Mahabharat: QUOTE: 'In Mahabharata, Draupadi's pride was crushed to ground when her own husband lost her in a gamble game. Why people says, Mahabharata, the battle, occurred due to Draupadi, I say it occurred due to Yudhisthira and why we call him 'Dharamraj', he lost this title at the very moment he could not fulfill the 'Dharam' of a husband.' UNQUOTE.
Draupadi's pride was a wife of 5 men. Why don't you say that her pride was crushed on this also? It is the human nature to get to the negatives rather than understanding the positive aspects from a particular episode. When Draupadi's saree was being pulled by Dushshasan who helped her? He was only Krishan, who was thousand of kilometer away but still he came to her rescue in fraction of seconds as soon as she called for him. But before this she thought the she can save her pride by her physical strength when she was holding the saree by her teeth. When this was being watched by watched by Krishan and Rukmani in Krishan's palace, Rukmani asked Krishan, "You say that Draupai is your sister-in-law but you are just watching the dishonor being done to her". Krishan replied, "I want to help her but what can I do she is not calling me, she thinks that she can safeguard her honour with her physical strength by holding her saree from her teeth". But the miracle happened as Draupdai's saree slipped from her teeth and she cried for help from Krishan, who reached in fraction of second to save her honour. Did you ever understand this reality from the whole episode of Mahabharat, that total submission and faith is required in God. I don't know who are the people who are saying that Mahabharat was a war because of Draupadi?

Your statement: QUOTE: 'we have to accept the best and reject what is degrading…'. UNQUOTE Are you having the ability to accept the best from the best which I have given to you through the example of the religious scriptures. You could not find them for yourself!

To say and write anything is easy but to understand the reality of the scriptures is tough. You in your rage have tried to create negatives from all the positives of the scriptures, which is most heartening.
What exactly the females want? is the biggest question. They themselves are not sure as to what they should do to have all the honour in the society. No matter what happens, but till this question is answered by the females themselves they can never have faith in the culture, religion, society, system, etc rather all the social segments which are interlinked.

Regards,
Nadeem Naqvi


World without God is Zero without One!


 
#398819    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

Thanks Preeti and Jyoti for supporting and encouraging.
Ramprasad Sir I responded continuously as I a having a set time of fram when I can respond. I will try this will not be done again.

To all, Yes, we want freedom! I am not seeking for anarchy, but just a little more freedom to stop what all is going in my society against me.

Infanticide: We want to have freedom to live! Why even after 3-4 girls parents keep waiting for a boy child. Why people stop want of more children after 2 boys.

Eve-teasing: Where boys behave freely in doing something wrong, there I want my freedom for saying a strong NO to him and to all who are merely watching and enjoying the scene.

Dowry: Where my father and mother have to keep half of their life's earning for me, still feeling more hesitated and dominated. And who asked for this are behaving more freely and in shameless manner.

Partiality: Yes! I want to have freedom that if my father is not saving money for my dowry please invest that in my education and my other necessary requirements.

Domestic Violence : Husband is superior, he can do anything, he can make any decision, here we want to be free to have a say against him and to stop his hand. If they are mature enough to still have pride in society after beating wife then we want to have at least freedom to say what actually we think about all this..

And in all other kind crimes and few things which are not counted as crime and not even reported out of four walls, we want to have enough freedom to stop all that.

How this can be achieved? By becoming a bit out going,,, by having a status or position where our society will not look us a a women but as a achiever. Few women has done and their names are always counted to give example. This is the pressure why we want to have and we are struggling for our freedom.

Let's imagine what will happen if we will get this?
There will be no social balance? That will increase difference between genders, there will be something like anarchy! There will be no families, there will no women in family?

I do not know how above things are related with women freedom. If we will have our say in society then also we will be a part of this society only, we will not find any other place to live. We will still remain a part of family. We will still be daughter, sister, mother and everything what we are today!

A direct question raised here is, have girls followed Indian culture, if not how can they say they are not protected by this.
Exactly we are not wearing sari or suit, we are not following all rituals, while this all is done by males! Are males conservative for themselves?
Why all traditions, customs, culture are measured by women actions only. Why we are not discussing what is in India culture to be followed by men. How many of males are following all rituals and customs what we have in our Indian culture.(there are limited for males)
Very few I know are these, wearing a thread around body, name I am missing right now. Pure sanyasi jivan before marriage, drinks and all evils are not part of our culture. Going clubs and pubs are part of their over demanding freedom. Are all these are in practice?

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#398827    Author: Nadeem Naqvi      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 95     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@ Chitra Rana madam, the thread which is worn by the Hindu males around their waist is called as "Janev.

I agree that drinking is not permitted in Indian culture, which I even think who introduced it. The religious city of Krukshatra is the only city where one is not allowed to drink. I love this.

None of the female or the so called female groups have ever raised voice in favour of Irom Chanu Sharmila (crusader against the atrocities on females by people in uniform). But if there is a rape case number of female organisations are raising voice just to have publicity. Shame that they are using the agony and pain of a person to get best of publicity.

There is lot of confusion among the females which they have to sort for themselves as the what they really want for their progress.

I have been saying the same thing in all my responses; Females should finalise what will be best for them? Even education has not solved anything for the females. Now they are running business but still they are not having the required respect in the society as per them.

Regards,
Nadeem Naqvi


World without God is Zero without One!


 
#398831    Author: Nadeem Naqvi      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 95     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@ Amaresh sb, yes, the males should change their mindset and give respect to the females (your reponse #398705). But this is only possible if the mode of punishment is changed for the culprit!

We are discussing our culture but the invasion is so drastic that we are readily accepting all that is negative. In BIGBOSS the porn star is invited but the so called female group keep their respective mouths shut and never objected to this invasion into our culture. If males are accused to be porn lovers, was it not the responsibility of the females organisation to voice against it? Then movie made casting the porn star was idea of a female, none raised the voice. What a pathetic state of affairs, where we are raising voice against our culture which is best but not having keen eye on the vulgarity which is being allowed in the name of modernisation.

Regards,
Nadeem Naqvi


World without God is Zero without One!


 
#398895    Author: Sun Online     Member Level: Platinum      Member Rank: 10     Date: 13/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

I could see a very tough argument going on in this lovely thread about the pride of the women. I am very proud to see the arguments of many members in favour of my initial statement that Indian culture does not safeguard the pride of women. I have not shared my part, but I am happy to see the members arguments with full zeal and enthusiasm. You may discuss anything in any way. I insist to say that Indian culture is not safe guarding the pride of our women in our country. We need to change our mindset and come out with different ideas to safe guard the pride of our women.

The first important pride of a women is to be proud of her chastity. A women need to upkeep her chastity which is a great asset she carries to the other home and offer it to her husband. Such a pride in women has become a question in this present days. The present culture has changed to western and mingling of both sexes freely without any control, made the women's chastity a questionable one.

Lovers, Girl friends, boy friends, clubs, pubs, parties and meeting, Valentine'days are the developments that degraded the original culture of India and given lift to the women to be with out any pride of proud feelings.

Yes. the pride of women is in danger because of our cultural change.
It is very difficult to go back to our original culture to safe guard our women's pride. We should do something to keep our women's pride intact.

I have seen most members deviated from the topic and discuss about women's dress and their safety in the public. Let us discuss about "'What is the pride of women and what is our Indian culture related to women's pride".

Regards,
Sun of ISC - Let us learn good English through ISC


 
#398925    Author: JyotiS      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 163     Date: 14/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

In reply to Nadeem Naqvi, post no. #398814,
Sir,
I am impressed by your deep knowledge and in-depth clarity of scriptures. Every action in those scriptures were justified but there is always a different side of looking at things. Lord Rama did what he considered as most suited as a ruler and as a son; he sacrificed a lot while fulfilling all his duties, but still he left Sita mata even when she has proved that she was untouched by any other man and is fully pious by giving 'Agni-pariksha'. Such an incident could break any women's pride. But scriptures have their own importance and if we cannot accept good teachings from them then we lose the right for questioning them as well.

Good and evil existed even at that time and good and evil exist even in today's world. The question is how to establish a balance between them so that male and female may co-exist with their prides intact. We have to accept good as they are and take lessons from bad to make our future a good one.
I again want to emphasize that there exist many restrictions and hurdles in the path of a women in the form of so many social evils like dowry, sexual abuse, child marriage, molestation, female foeticides and so on; in such a situation we have to move ahead with strength keeping our head high in pride of who we are. I must also admit that I am not blaming male community alone for such social evils but a mind-set and thought process which could be rectified by proper social reforms just as what were carried out by the founders of 'Arya Samaj', and 'Brahma samaj' before and during independence. Let us again make a new 'Samaj' which is free from all the social evils especially against women.

________
Regards,
JS.


 
#398928    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 14/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

@ Nadeem Sir, thank you for reminding exact name and I am happy to observe that you know many facts from history and from all religion background.
I know much less, but among my Muslim friends also, they told us that we are not allowed to take drinks, we are not allowed to have affairs, but have to marry a girl to keep relation with the girl if she is not in his blood relation.


In continuation to my response #398819, Friends, please ask yourselves, what we are asking for, you have from last many years and generations. If customs and culture is existing in today's India is due to women only. It's mother from whom we learn to know and understand what my culture is.
If credit of spoiling or adulteration in original Indian culture is to be given to someone between men and women then it goes to men. And friends I do not have any doubt while stating this.
We are not demanding that we should also be allowed to do this because you have done this, but please if you can't keep things right do not make this fault of your to be a subterfuge for dominating women.

Friends, before responding to this thread I was not thinking that Indian culture is responsible for anything done against women but as this discussion is proceeding, it is becoming clear that it may not be Indian culture but on name of Indian culture, our society is suppressing women!

About other questions like what we want, to some extent I have answered, even why we want and have to do this and in only manner we can do this.
Now even my questions remained at same place and unanswered what males want from us on the way to attain what we want and what kind of support we can expect from them?

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#398933    Author: Saji Ganesh        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 42     Date: 14/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

@Jyoti and Chitra Rana, we are not holding a debate to conclude as to whether man is superior or woman. We are discussing about culture of which we are part of. Can you say that all the men are treated alike in the society? Why? Because it is not possible. And if it is all about co-existence as Jyoti has said, then there is no point in talking about equality. Is there any difference in power or status between a male President and a female one? No. As far as the people of India is concerned it is the President of India.

Nadeem Naqvi sb has given an excellent interpretation of the episodes from the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Lord Rama cannot be blamed because, being the King, his primary responsibility was to his people. It was his duty to prove that his wife was chaste so that she regains the respect from the people. But, Sita's pride was hurt. She could not tolerate that her husband was doubting her chastity. She could not understand that Lord Rama was doing all this to prove her innocence before the people who were his subjects.

Irrespective of the fact whether you are a man or woman, every individual is expected to play a different role. Pride as an individual is a different aspect. One cannot expect others to be concerned about that. So, to safeguard your own pride, to ensure that your pride is not trampled upon, you have to see to it that your actions or behavior does not give the other person a chance to do so.

I cannot expect my boss to be concerned about my pride when he has to scold me for something. Similarly, if I can no longer stand the arrogance of my boss and I have to shout back at him, I won't be thinking whether his pride will be hurt. So, we have to give room for all eventualities. Pride is not something like sugar or salt that can be packed in pouches having different weights. It is an abstract term and cannot be given a perfect definition.

I still stand by my point that our culture has never safeguarded the pride of women. If we are to safeguard the pride of men and pride of women, then there would be no society; there will be individuals only.


 
#398940    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 14/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

Sure Sai ji, we are not discussing who is superior. But we are discussing about women and her pride and our Indian culture impact on her pride.

My response are reaction over certain responses and that is part of discussion. I am not saying we want equal right to do wrong but I want right to do right. Yes, there are equal right for a designation and that's why we have to be on some designation, so are we trying.
For a women this is not possible to safeguard her pride totally based on her action. As a women other things do matter.
Sorry! If I went more straight and blunt in my responses but my intention was not to let this GD end like any other road side discussion about women and society where things starts from girls dress and ends there. Even any girl is not allowed to express her thoughts in against to what elders are saying. This is like platform where I can say all thing equally so I shared.
Sorry! If somebody is feeling hurt, but we too feels hurt when we face or hear something against us!

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#398963    Author: Nadeem Naqvi      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 95     Date: 14/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

@ Jyoti madam, response to your response #398925.
Please I would request you not to compare the female of today to the Goddess Sita. She went through the fire not because she was Goddess but as a Human being and she were unhurt. This is the proof that if you are true you may have to cross the oceans of fire. It was only a moral teaching to the people of this world.
Now coming to learning for the scriptures I would again quote my response #398814 where I have mentioned the episode of Lord Krishan and Draupadi. It is what we take in a positive manner.
To object it is very easy: See a handicap person and say, "Why God has made him blind?", "Why is he lame?", etc. But the understand what is the reason behind it, one cannot understand.
I thank you for your comment: QUOTE "But scriptures have their own importance and if we cannot accept good teachings from them then we lose the right for questioning them as well." UNQUOTE. Exactly this is what I wanted you to understand, that scriptures are the most perfect books which have all for a person to understand.
And dear friend to change the society we all have to strive hard. One example which comes to my mind here is that of Ekta Kapoor. She started all the female oriented serials and in the beginning these were hits but as the time passed and the immorality came in and the question of the female honour was getting the females themselves started to dislike.

@ Chitra Rana madam, thanks for your appreciation (reference response #398928). I would request you to kindly explain your line: QUOTE: "but have to marry a girl to keep relation with the girl if she is not in his blood relation". UNQUOTE.
Yes, I agree that the mothers have taken proper care of the religion and have nurtured the ethical values in us. But why only male is to be blamed for this?
EG: if the females object to the dance in bars then can any force them to do it!
If the actress is objecting to vulgar and obscene in films then can anyone make them perform that way!
I have already said in my previous responses that male is opportunist, but his greed for more in instigated by the kneeling of few of the weaker sex.

I don't know what your age is! All the females here are included in this who are related to this thread, only because I request you all not to take it wrong, what I am going to write now under this line:
Respected Female friends, no matter what is the education level one is having, how modern the female is, or no matter what status she is holding in the society, she will never disclose to male colleague about catamenia. Though it is natural but to be bold is something which should be within to fight against the odd.

We have to fight the odds which are for both the male and the female in the society and have to make the society livable for both the males and the females.

@ Saji Ganesh sb, with reference to your response #398933.
Thanks for your kind words. Yes, this is not a debate where in a conclusion is to be required, but we have to find out as to how can we bring in peace in the society and make this society a better place to live.

No one should be hurt about anything, and Ms. Chitra I would like to tell you personally that I have raised number of blog post on the Delhi rape but I am strange that people are not responding but reading the same daily.

Regards,
Nadeem Naqvi


World without God is Zero without One!


 
#398989    Author: Kalyani        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 37     Date: 14/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

In response to Nadeem sir's response # 398814
The words mentioned in his response 'What exactly the females want? is the biggest question. They themselves are not sure as to what they should do to have all the honor in the society.' And ' they can never have faith in the culture, religion, society, system, etc rather all the social segments which are interlinked.' doesn't sound wise.

It is not the question of what the females or males want or the females not having faith in the culture etc. But we need to understand that we all are humans / members of a society and strive for a healthier society for harmonious living and peaceful co-existence. It would be nice if the discussion is pinpointed on the present situation of women in the society and her safety / safeguarding her pride in the present situation. As per the mention in my response # 398744, it is not what the male or female want in the society but any practice which is detrimental to society irrespective of the gender should be discard and only the healthy practices should be continued for making healthy society and stronger nation. The great social reformer Raja Ram Mohan Roy tried to abolish the bad practices like Sati Pratha (which sounds inhuman) and fought for the same. It is not that he had no faith in the society nor in the region, but he wanted to reform the society by abolishing the then prevailing bad practices in the society at the same time he had great respect and faith for our culture, religion and traditions. Keeping this in this I repeat that, it is not what the females want or not having faith in our culture, tradition etc as mention in your (Nadeem sir's) post but the bad practices that are prevailing in the present society as mentioned in my response # 398744 need to be checked / abolished to safeguard the pride of women.

Pride of women in this context does not restrict to only protecting her chastity or fighting for equal rights but it is much more than that which includes giving the due place and respect to her in the society, empowerment and much more.

How safe are women in the present society? And to what extent their pride can be safeguarded in the present situation? Unfortunately in few cases of sexual abuse even on the innocent small girls below the age of 11 years. How safe are these innocent small girls in our society? Even the parents of girls under 11 yrs are worried about the safety of their girls at that innocent age.

My appreciations to Chitra Rana, JyotiS, Nadeem sir, Saji Ganesh, Venkiteswaran sir, Sukhdev sir who are making the discussion interesting with each response of theirs. Kudos to all the responses and wonderful explanations.

-----------------
Thanks & Regards
Kalyani


 
#399005    Author: Ramakrishna Kambhampati      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 114     Date: 14/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Self respect is the ability of a person to act according to her or his conscious. In our lively discussion most of them agreed culture has an impact on self respect of an woman. Some members agreeing Indian culture safeguarding and some disagreeing to it. When I am thinking about this issue there is another angle also I am seeing. What is the measurement of self respect or acting according to conscious by oneself? In India we find many different strata of people are there- very rich people, rich people, middle class people, below poverty line people etc. The self respect or acting according to conscious is relatively become different in different strata of people. A middle class or below average male or female person have to leave self respect to earn something for their lively hood. Such is the way people have to compromise themselves in so many such situations. Then in such situation the pride of a woman also depends upon the standards of their living.

 
#399044    Author: JyotiS      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 163     Date: 14/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

Kalyani Ma'm,
Thank you for motivating all of us for this healthy discussion.

@All,
Instead of focusing on past and on dress code of females of our society, let us talk about what is it that actually is a symbol of pride for today's women. Here I would like to quote my earlier reply (post no. #398402), A women as a pilot, a doctor, a soldier, a nurse, an athlete, a badminton player, a swimmer and whatever you may think of would take pride in wearing her uniform and displaying it with proud in front of everyone.
A housewife may feel proud when someone appreciates her clean and beautiful home, or when her husband gets promoted or when her children scores top ranks in exams as directly or indirectly she is responsible for their success for making everything very comfortable and easy for them. It is her hard work and dedication which is reflected in their success.
A working women may take pride when she was appreciated for her work and intellect. A grandmother may take pride in looking at all her grandchildren playing around her, making her life more busy and colorful.

No, we are not really interested in comparison with anyone, but give us our share of sky and let us reach there with our own efforts without fear and tears. we do not mind taking a helping hand and giving it in return but let there be no abuses and harassment. We do not claim to be perfect. Yes! we err, we learn, we try to make things better, we fail and we try again, and this cycle goes on. Men try to take pride in protecting his females and for that he try to restrict her in a number of ways. His intentions may not be bad but instead of killing the weed from the roots, he is trying to pluck the leaves. To eradicate the issue of dangers to women, why not try social reforms so that every women may feel safe to step out for her instead of posing restriction on her and if anything unfortunate happens to her, instead of punishing the wrong doer you are ready to blame her dressing sense or out-going nature or any such similar thing. No, I do not promote revealing and short dresses on women but due to a very small percentage of them, why are you ready to tag every women/girl as 'asking-for-getting-into-danger' type?

The crime report confirms that most of the crime against women occurred in secure public places like hospitals, hostels, colleges, even at homes and in 90% of the cases girls were wearing most decent type of dress. So this is just one of the accuses to get away unharmed for abusers.
My pride and every mother's pride will be when she would not feel frightened when her daughter steps out in this harsh world to chase her dreams.

________
Regards,
JS.


 
#399081    Author: Nadeem Naqvi      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 95     Date: 14/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

@ Kalyani madam, this is with reference to your response #398989.
You have mentioned that you don’t agree with me to the question which I have asked in my previous responses: What exactly the females want? On the other hand you have asked that we should be pinpointed to the situation of the females as of today. Respected Madam, the situation of female which is being shown by the media and the hue and cry is all about, has not developed in a single day. These are the repercussion of slow poison. The situation has been rather same but the media has never been soon female oriented. Now the war of TRP has made them understand to extract what is sellable. Don’t you agree that suddenly there is an increase in the news of rape and atrocities on females?
Coming to your statement: QUOTE: ‘any practice which is detrimental to society irrespective of the gender should be discard and only the healthy practices should be continued’ UNQUOTE
I do agree, yes it should be done but can you point out some of the healthy practices. The reason being that females are worst hit in the present time as per their perceptions, and when there a solution has to seek for them the segment which is being affected should point out the problematic areas also. Let the problematic areas to be discussed, for a better inference leading to a rock strong and long lasting, healthy situation to benefit all.

As per your response #398744, the movement started by Raja Ram Mohan Roy against sati and education for females has been done to the fullest but still the situation for the females is the same. Don’t you think so!

It is not only the education which can bring in change but it is something else which is missing in the society and thus the dream for a better status of females is not being drafted for.

I do agree that crime against women is a question to the security of the same, but how to control it, is the major question? We have to sit and think that something is wrong somewhere. How to solve this?

I hope you remember that long back I had posted a thread in the forum section regarding the use of females as products. Many responded to the same. And here in this context I would discuss it again that the females first should raise their voice against the usage of females as products. In the ad of shaving cream what is the need of a female? On the wrapper of an electronic product why a female has to be printed?

I had written a blog on the eve of ‘Slut Walk’ in Delhi which I started with a story (available on Google Search), which I think I should post here, but only is the copyrights permit. It will make the females understand what has gone wrong and where it has gone wrong.

@ Jyoti madam, your reponse #399044. You yourself say that dressing of the females should not be discussed but in the end again the closing statement is the reason of female clothing.
Madam, rape is not only for a female even the males are raped, and the cases have not be ever reported anywhere in the society. It is a crime and crime cannot come to an end only by discussion but this requires a strong will power to fight. Together we all can fight and help in building a better world.
One tool given to the females (my response #398654) is section 498 IPC—to fight the atrocities against female in their in-laws home. But this section has been the most miss used one in the present time. Who is responsible for this?

I am not here to contradict to what female friends are saying but the only what that we should discuss things and come to some rock strong conclusion for a better tomorrow.

Regards,
Nadeem Naqvi


World without God is Zero without One!


 
#399097    Author: Amaresh      Member Level: Silver      Member Rank: 880     Date: 14/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Spiritual leader Asaram Bapu courted controversy for suggesting that the victim of the brutal sexual assault was equally responsible for the crime and saying the girl could have called her assailants brothers and begged them to stop.

Addressing his followers recently, Asaram said that when the girl encountered six drunk men "she should have taken God's name and could have held the hand of one of the men and said I consider you as my brother and should have said to the other two 'Brother I am helpless, you are my brother, my religious brother.'

How can these Gurus guidde their devotes in the right path ?


 
#399107    Author: JyotiS      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 163     Date: 14/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

In response to the reply no #399081, Nadeem Naqvi,
I would like to quote your words here, the movement started by Raja Ram Mohan Roy against sati and education for females has been done to the fullest but still the situation for the females is the same.
Sir, I do not feel that the efforts made my Raja Ram Mohan Roy, the founder of Brahmo Sabha, and similar social reformers like Swami Dayananda Saraswati, the founder of Arya Samaj went in vain. Raja Ram Mohan Roy stood against ill treatment against women and support re-marriages for widows; and at that time this movement was a big success due to which many victims of early marriage got a respectable place in the society. Swami Dayanad Saraswati advocated equal rights for women in our society and stood firmly against dowry system. I can say that these reforms were most powerful social reforms in the history of India because my grandfather and many of his friends (almost all of them are now no more), were firm followers of the teachings of Arya Samaj; they refused to take dowry and also with mutual consent of families help in re-marriage of many widows. Now that they are no more, and their children do not follow the same rules and move on with time. My father still have an age old book about Arya Samaj and if you read it you will understand how much powerful and effective those movements were.
I strongly believe in these reforms and movements as they have shuffled up the society and basic cultural thought of people during the time when our society was struggling against severe adversities.

But with time the teaching and effectiveness of these movement faded away and we reach to another turning point where we started comparing our society with the west. This resulted in a confusion and mixed feeling about the identity and about what could be best for us. Everyone is confused as they do not know whether to take pride in being associated with out past culture or with the modern western culture.
With these words I would again like to emphasis the fact which our reformers have also understood that our culture is very rich with a few limitations and loop holes in it. We have to eradicate these limiting negativities after identifying them and this is possible only with a new social reform with new mind set.

________
Regards,
JS.


 
#399113    Author: Sukhdev Singh      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 13     Date: 14/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

1995 was declared as the International year of women. This was done to spread the awareness among the peoples of the world about the importance and status that the women whole in the society. Many movements have taken place in the different countries of the world from time for the advancement of women. The world meet of women was held recently in Beijing, the capital of China. It is the women who have to keep themselves alive to the situation and should not let the society to be completely dominated by men. They should make their male counterparts to realize that both the man and woman are like the two wheels of the cart. The one cannot move without the other. The upliftment of the society is in their joint hands. The women have to fight for their rights to keep their head high the society. Today is the Valentine's day. The women of the world are united together today and are participating in 'One Million Rising' (OMR). This is a worldwide campaign by women in which even men and the youth of the society has joined with the women to show their solidarity towards the women. This shows that the women are not alone in fighting against abuse on the women. The day will not be far when all our women are equally educated to get them free from superstitions and irrational traditions of the society. Our culture has helped the women in the past and it will also help them to keep their head held high in the society.

"Teaching is my passion and sharing knowledge is my motto"
Regards,
Sukhdev Singh
Lead Editor Forums Section


 
#399116    Author: Amaresh      Member Level: Silver      Member Rank: 880     Date: 14/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

In villages the torcher done to women is far more that it is being done in metros. However, it is never termed as rape because the public their have become acquainted to it and they does not regard it as an offence.

 
#399118    Author: Amaresh      Member Level: Silver      Member Rank: 880     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

I feel that the awareness program that is started on the valentine day will definitely have its impact on the society.

 
#399120    Author: Saji Ganesh        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 42     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

I will start with a sentence from Nadeem sab's response#398814, 'what exactly does the female want? is the biggest question'. I think he has asked a valid question.

Kalyani has responded that it is not the question of what they want. Her point seems to be that since we are all human beings, we should together try to create an atmosphere for peaceful co-existence. Jyoti seems to echo the same sentiment when she says that, 'give us our share of the sky and let us reach there with our own efforts without fear and tears'. So, should we take it that their pride is deeply connected to their freedom? And, do they expect that freedom to be unlimited? If that be the case, what about the pride of men. I don't think that even a man is totally free to take decisions.

As long as the members of the women community are not sure about what they mean by pride, I don't think they would be justified in saying that their pride has been hurt. Take the response of JyotiS #399044 where she has said that a woman may feel proud when somebody appreciates her for keeping the house clean or when her husband is promoted etc. This is where the confusion lies, because, I don't think that being proud of something is related to the pride of a woman. If that was the case, things would have been easier.

The concept of pride of a woman cannot be said to have any universal application. It is relative and cannot have a blanket application to every woman. It depends on individuals.

If individuality is what we are trying to connect with pride, then I think it is almost not practical because we are part of a society. Since we are nearing the closing hours of this GD, I think I should come out more specifically.

Indian society is based on the structure of family. We have been following certain customs and traditions as part of our culture. If we look back to the period of our ancestors, we find that it was not the girls only but even the boys were not allowed to express their opinion in matters which had to be decided by the elders. Things were well settled. Everyone was clear about their limitations and other parameters and nobody stepped out beyond that. Grudge must have been there in the young minds, but the same was never expressed or debated in order to maintain an uninterrupted flow of the society. There must have been men's pride and women's pride, but importance was given to the pride of a family and thereby of the society.

Culture is subject to changes as per the changes in the way of life and other developments and it is for the members of the society to ensure that they do not deviate much from the basic structure to ensure that mutual respect is maintained. Man and woman has been created in such a manner that they have to co-exist as interdependent beings. In being so, I don't think it would be practical to maintain individual identities at all times. There is no wrong in calling for a change in the degree of perception, but a total change in the existing pattern may bring in negative results.


 
#399132    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

@ Nadeem Sir, In response to you response 398963, Here is my explanation for above statement. where I said so as this was shared by my friend (that time we were discussing about a certain article related to marriages in same clan ) Firoz that this is not in Indian Muslim culture to marry brothers and sisters, we are allowed to marry only those girls who are not in blood relations. Even having before marriage relation is not allowed, even drinking and playing cards is not allowed.
I would like to mention he is the only among boys who have shared that there is any kind of restriction is on boys too !

Friends, now coming to another important points rising here. One, some rules were made to help women while few women is misusing this. What is the problem then, whether you believe to save those very few people (were directly or indirectly taken dowry) affected in these cases then affected brides and families. Sympathy is good but partial as this is still affecting lesser people and dowry is still there and most of the cases of harassment due to dowry are still not filed.
So if few true and few false (dowry is taken but may not be major reason of case) cases, filed and are bit creating fear in mind of men or in- laws in embarrassing a women, should not be stopped and girls should not be allowed to continue to bear everything.

Second, Girls are confused! I got the concept what you( Nadeem Sir) want to convey here, from you blogs and articles! Friends, according to him we should fight for removing that image that girls are product or are made to be used. We should fight for changing mindset of people towards girls or women.(As I derived.)
I agree but . . how we can make us able to make people listen to us, to make society believe in what we want, by becoming their wives, mother, sister, they do accept this that his mother/sister are not this. But their view for women remains same. So we have to be in position where they believe in our wisdom as a women also. And for this we need proper education, proper support to make a stable career, but not in few number. Many many girls from every city, village and every home should strive to achieve good education and further if possible.

About slut walk, that might be over reaction by girls, due to over and bad reaction from all sides (even on national channels few people were discussing shamelessly and mentioning our dress code to be the main reason behind such crimes.) So that walk might be emotional and over reaction to this. As we all know we all felt hur emotionally after reading henious crimes against women. That might be bad reaction to those bad discussion. At such times it happens, in rage people may behave in any manner, on any idea, suggested by anyone but if there is surety of getting noticed. They were not allowed to be violent, but were allowed to get noticed.
But we can see in this discussion none of us want to dress in that manner nor want to have freedom to roam half nude but what we are stressing on is to allow us to behave like a human with fully working mind!

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#399136    Author: Sun Online     Member Level: Platinum      Member Rank: 10     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Members,

After reading through all the responses, I am confused as to what is being discussed. It is a very lengthy discussion with lengthy responses but not correct to the topic to be discussed.
I do not know what you are discussing about. The topic given is to discuss whether India's culture safeguards the pride of a women. The members are discussing a different thing without first knowing what is a pride of a woman. As I earlier mentioned, the pride of a woman are the proud feeling of herself and others about the woman.
The pride of a woman are like this.
1. Happiness of the woman
2. Self esteem of the woman
3. The intelligence and knowledge and education of the woman
4. The secured feelings of women in side home and outside home
5. The behavior ,conduct and respect and dress of the woman
6. Finally, the Chastity of the woman.

Now, the Indian culture relevant to women.
1. Our women are treated equivalent to God and Goddesses
2. Men without women are invalid. So women are supreme. Motherhood is holy. No earth without women.
3. Women with chastity is desired by all
4. Only one woman for one man.
5. Women are for the words patience and tolerance.
6. Women are the better halves of men

Now let us analyse one by one briefly.
Is a woman happy in our country – No. Females are considered as a burden, Families prefer male child than females. Even a mother wants to give birth only to a male child. The mother becomes unhappy if she delivers a female baby.
Has any woman live with self esteem – No. Ladies are treated like slaves under the men. They do not have any independence especially economical freedom. Women are branded as home makers or house wives.
The intelligence, knowledge and education – No. Families prefer to educate their male wards and try to get their females married soon. Literacy rate of males are higher than females.
The secured feeling of a woman inside home – No. Ill treatment by in-laws. Ill treatment by husband. Courts are filled with cases of divorce.
The secured feeling of a woman outside home – No. Women are looked differently with eagle eyes. Women cannot move alone at any part of the day, Night to women are night mare to them.
The behavior, conduct and respect and dress– It is not what it supposed to be. Due to western culture and higher education, ladies have changed themselves especially people from urban and city areas. Clubs and pubs have made a great difference in the life of females. The western dress in India is against our culture that exposes the body in public to attract the other sex.
Finally the chastity of women. It is a great question and is suspected and doubted because of the freedom offered to our female to move around freely. The relationship developed as boy friend, lover boy and visit to clubs, parties and meetings and datings etc.
To overcome these problems both males and females should change their mindsets about the females. Then only we can safeguard the pride of women in our country.

Under the above circumstances how can we agree to say that Indian culture safeguards the pride of our women.

Regards,
Sun of ISC - Let us learn good English through ISC


 
#399140    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

Constructive answer from Sun Sir.

Even after so much discussion and seeing what all happening in our society, if we are not clear to few of us what we want and why we want, this is really discouraging!

Do not ask us now, ask yourself what all you can do to provide better society to your sister, to your daughter. What all changes in society you want to have a happy and safe life to your most loving daughter, think as a good father, feel as a today's daughter's father feels!
I hope you will get the best answer which will convince you best.

Still a lot to say, still a lot to discuss (express!) but we all are having time limit for this GD, so we may proceed towards conclusions, if there are, any derived! If discussion is still closing with many question marks, a day or more should be extended, if possible.
May be after this we may proceed in constructive way!

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#399167    Author: Kalyani        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 37     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

As per response # 399081 of Nadeem sir in which he agreed and mentioned that there is an increase in women atrocities and this statement of his is contradicting his own views on safeguarding the pride of women. Till now in all his responses, he was supporting 'Indian culture safeguards the pride of women'. Moreover regarding my mention of Raja Ram Mohan Roy, yet he could succeed to a great extent in abolishing Sati and women education in country. Don't you think so?

As a final note let me share my views in a nutshell. As mentioned by few members it is not that females don't know what they want and they do not have faith and respect for our culture and society but all Indians take pride in their cultural heritage and respect our culture from deep within our heart. But keeping the present condition of women in our society in view, the people strive for peaceful co-existence and a harmonious living.

And for a healthy society, one need to take in the good practices of the society and leave the bad practices of the society which are detrimental to both the males and females as well just like a swan is characterized for taking only the essence from the milk and discards water which it feels is unwanted. So also people need to understand that cultural change at every stage in the society is evident and as long as the change is towards a healthy practice, there is nothing wrong in following such a practice but otherwise if it proves detrimental to the society and its members then it has to be prevented.

So also the bad practices prevailing in the society need to be discarded though it is an age old practice but proves no good to the society then there is nothing wrong in discarding such bad practices.

Keeping the present situation of the society in view, it is evident that women have no safe place in the society and hence our culture fails to safeguard the pride of women. Here pride has a wide range of meaning which includes her chastity, freedom of expression, respect, equal opportunities, equal rights and responsibilities which should not be confined only to the laws, scriptures or bills but it should be put into practice. Unless and until there is reform in this regard, it is difficult to safeguard the pride of our women.

Parents of girl children are much concerned about the safety of their girls particularly when these girls go outdoors either for education or for work. As per the question of Nadeem sir in his response # 399081 in which he asked 'how to solve this problem?'

My answer is each and every citizen plays a role in contributing something to the society and there needs to be a drastic change in the attitude of our people both men and women. There is an old popular Telugu movie named Saptapadi which was made by the famous Kalatapasvi K.Viswanath gaaru. Let me quote a wonderful sequence from this movie as an exemplary one. A young temple priest (Durga Devi temple) in the movie is forced to marry his cross cousin who is a classical dancer in a troupe and is in love in a person - flutist in the troupe who does not know about the love affair. But when they happen to enter into the room after marriage, the temple priest is surprised to see Goddess Durga Devi in his wife and suddenly he prostates before her and chants Mahishasura Mardini. Though the woman tied wedding knot with the priest yet her soul / heart belonged to a different person. Because of this reason the temple priest could not get the feeling of wife for her but had seen Goddess Durga Devi in her.

I can understand it is not an easy task but not impossible. If all our Indian movies keep conveying such wonderful scenes and spread messages of treating every other woman other than the wife of a man as Goddess or their Mother or Sister, the attitude of people might change to some extent as movies have a great impact on our social life. Besides this even there need to be a social reform in this regard and people both men and women should come out of the feeling that she is a woman / I am a woman so she / I can't do this or that or not eligible to do this or that.

Every woman should be determined in her life, should have a goal in life other than getting married. Of course marriage is an important part of a society for the propagation of the species but at the same time she should have some role in the society and do something productive to the society for the welfare of the society. It is a fact that an educated mother can make healthy citizens of the society. Keeping the importance of woman in continuing life on the Earth, an Indian woman should be given her due respect, identity in the society, emotional support and above all she should even have self-respect.

-----------------
Thanks & Regards
Kalyani


 
#399184    Author: Ramprasad      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 26     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Well myself was absent from GD since two days and the number of responses of members have increased. Anyhow let me conclude my views towards the GD topic. India is the nation known for its best culture and tradition across the worlds is only the one side of the coin but on the other side India is becoming the top nation n in terms of degrading and crime rate against women. Every day the news channels and papers have been filled –up with crimes against women in various modes, where we are heading towards in this technologically advanced days people mainly the men are more ill-treating women by causing damages to their pride. In this context necessity of following the Indian cultures has been raised which can somewhat provides the safeguards for women. But women starting from her birth always find restrictions and struggles throughout her life. A baby boy and a baby girl won't get the same facilities and respect in the society, not only in society but at homes too. This ill-treatment should be changed first, parents mainly mother have to take initiative part in making the baby girls strong enough to face the society, along with this the same mother have to teach moral values to her baby boy starting from the childhood and have tell stories related to respecting the women. The male dominated society's attitude and approach have to be changed towards women, and the involvement of women has to be included in all fields equally with male. Women should be given the political power; hence they can make the law and orders function perfectly. Every individual mainly the men have to treat the unknown women as their sisters and mothers, awareness programs have to conduct among men mainly in rural parts in respecting the girls and women. We the major part of the society has to change our mindsets towards women and girls then only the safeguard of women will be possible.

There are some things that money just cannot buy, like manners, morals and intelligence.


 
#399192    Author: Saji Ganesh        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 42     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

I feel that Sun has given a very distorted view about the condition of women in the present day India. I don't think things are that bad. There were and will be incidents which might shock us or leave us sad, but that does not mean that all men are against women.

I don't think it is fair to blame the men alone for all the atrocities against women. If you notice, most of the incidents especially those related to dowry, forced prostitution, foeticide and cruelty have women playing an active or passive role in it.

I think we are going to conclude this GD without being able to give a concrete definition to the term 'women's pride'. Let us take it that it is basically connected with the individuality of a woman. As I said earlier, neither men nor women can enjoy the privileges of being an individual because you are part of the society. Indian culture definitely respects women, but keeping the separate and individual roles that has to be played by everyone who is part of the society in mind, I am not sure whether we were, or would be, able to safeguard the pride of our women as is expected by them today.

We have time till tomorrow noon. I will summarize my comments before that. Let us all take the final leap as we are in the last lap.


 
#399201    Author: JyotiS      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 163     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

@ Saji Ganesh, reply no. #399120,
when I pin point different reasons and cases in which a women may take pride, I am NOT at all saying that a women is confused but rather that there is no common base for analysing and generalizing what women want and what boost her pride.

@ Sun Sir, post no. #399136,
You have very clearly tried to note down the points under question for the pride of a woman in our society and tried to give clear picture of how every one of those points were mostly shattered resulting in the death of pride of an average female in our society. My compliments for analyzing this issue in so simple way.

Nadeem Sir, you have tried to emphasize on the fact that our culture safeguards the pride of a women but in your response no.# 399081, you sounded confused and your voice against social reformers support my view that somewhere our culture could not safeguard the pride of a women in a combined society.

@ All,
Many efforts have been made to safeguard the pride and self respect of a women in our society but we are still a long distance away where we can proudly claim that we are safe and we feel proud of our modified society. 'Dilli abhi door hai.' There is usually no common base which can be used to analyze the pride of a women, different females have different priorities but if I try to reach a general point, I would sum them up as follows:
  1. give us the right of proper education.

  2. Do not be partial between a male and a female child.

  3. Before marriage, kindly ask for our opinion.

  4. Let there be no verbal or sexual abuse against us when we are carrying out our duties.

  5. Let me not die or tortured for dowry.

  6. Do not consider me as a garbage and indulge in female foeticides.

  7. When you address me, kindly show some respect.

  8. Kindly look at me and not at my other body parts while talking to me.

  9. Instead of dowry, let me considered as a legal heir of my parents property and name.

  10. Let me take pride in wearing suitable and comfortable clothing (official and unofficial attires included).

  11. Let me not forced to change my thoughts, way of worship and many other things which I have been doing since my birth.

  12. Consider me as a fellow human and not as a slave when passing order to me at home. You can request with love and I would not mind doing anything for you.

These are so many simple things but a woman's pride is hurt by these simple issues every day much more than the big issues that made highlights in news channels. These issues may seem more personal and individual based but it is the epicenter of all satisfaction. A society is made up of families and families of individuals and thus if individuals are not satisfied then how can anyone expect a society to be satisfied. Simple deeds of kindness, simple acts of respect and simple words of love, is enough to make a women happy and secure her pride.
Nature has not made us equal but when we stand on the same ground level kindly believe in justice and not only on equality for a while, keeping your male ego and lust away. We do not claim to be superior to men but please do not consider us inferior as well; we are just different and let it be so.

If you want to safeguard the pride of a woman, believe in change from within and spread it outward. When you educate your girl child about her safety, educate your boy child as well not to get involved in any way in such practices against woman/girl. "Charity starts at home and so does the reforms of our society". It is not an easy thing and may take a few decades before its result could be visible but we have to take a stand now. "A plant takes some time to become a full fledged tree". After a long and healthy group discussion, I still stand on my views that our culture has somewhere failed to safeguard the pride of women. Though this not at all means that we have to look at West for guidance but we have to look into our own heart and find the solution.No one from outside would come to save us or show us the true path, we are the founders of our own culture and future and thus this change need to come from within us.

Let us all bring about a new social and cultural awakening for the benefit of our children and to safeguard the pride of every child, girl and boy, of our society.

________
Regards,
JS.


 
#399230    Author: Ramakrishna Kambhampati      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 114     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

The GD almost moving towards a closing time and so I want to put forth my view points in brief and also I would like to mention a few points I opposed from other members.

I say 'Yes' to the debating issue, Indian culture will safeguard the pride of woman and I oppose all those who say no. In my belief if Indian culture is not, in no other culture it is not possible. At present even though people are not following our traditional culture but the impact of that culture is still there with in us which is making our people quite different from others. In every country, like India there are agitations, social movements are there in woman to fight for the equal rights with men and to uplift the pride of woman. Indian culture is a flexible one and can modify itself for the good or bad. Even though a mixed culture with bad practices (drinking, smoking, drug and narcotic consumption, following bad dress code, jolly moving of male and female with no purpose, immoral relationships etc.) is in force at present in India, still we can protect the pride of a woman. For this our Indian family culture is a tool for it. If the head's of the families inculcate good customs, good discipline, norms, good traditions, social ethics, good family values within the members of the family and which help to develop a good tradition in the society. At present so many such families are there respected for their good tradition and value abiding nature. A family with values give due importance to the male and female members of the family. They provide equal opportunities and support to the woman with their male counter parts. This help the women to develop according their wish, develop self confidence and helps in elevating her pride.

When compared to the past the situation of the woman status in India has very much changed at present. Many members argued restricting woman to four corners of the house but at present parents are giving more freedom to female on par with their brothers in education, in choosing their careers, in choosing bridegroom, respecting all their wishes or due to she is the one child supposed to be in their house. It is the woman to take that opportunity to reach their aimed goals to elevate their pride or get respect from other members of the society. At present we find so many such educated and job doing woman are there at various positions where they are enjoying their self respect and also respect from the members of society. Some members argued pride means what ever a woman wants to do with her inner conscious. I support Venkatiswaran sir, he raised a good point woman is also living in a society, freedom without discipline leads to social anarchy. It is true that if a woman give respect to values, her inner conscious will help to gain self esteem and it also promoted by the respect she got from other members of the society. So, I oppose many members who argued self respect or pride is a thing which is related to her own. In my opinion male or female if they don't follow their inner conscious it is impossible for any body to maintain their pride which is the case where members of the society following bad culture..

One of my opinion I wish mention is, pride or self respect or self esteem what we are discussing in this GD, we can imply it to well educated, very rich or rich people. Even those who educated very well either male or female has to leave their self respect aside to earn something for their lively hood. This situation arises in so many times in their lives. Even the well educated people are not able to think about their pride how can you expect this will happen to poor and below average people of the society. With the present day conditions it is highly impossible to expect the pride of all woman of different strata of India will be safeguarded.

Our culture has no fault in it and it has the flexibility to get improved and refined. But the western culture which is shown through movies has greater impact on youth. The only remedy and solution at the present day anarchy of the society is the parents of the families have to give prime importance to inculcate good moral and ethical values, discipline, spirituality, following good traditions in the members of the family. Parents should not show any disparity between male and female in their education or fulfilling their wishes. Thus inculcating good and healthy family values holds key in safeguarding the pride of a woman in the society. .

As part of this GD contest I am submitting my resource written for this purpose. Sorry for the late submission of this resource, even though I completed most of the resource by 15th Feb., I am unable to submit due to my work pressure on time:

Indian culture and its ability to upheld the pride of a woman


 
#399312    Author: Saji Ganesh        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 42     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

Look at the points given by Sun and JyotiS while summarizing as to what possibly must be related to the pride of a woman. All these points are basically individual centered. We must admit that most of the members have expressed views which stand near these points. Does that mean that the social factors like being a daughter, wife or mother are not counted as factors affecting the pride of a woman or that these are not given priority? I feel that this is the basic reason why women are feeling insecure or that their pride is being hurt.

If we look at the past, we find that individual pride was not given much importance. Male or female were always considered to be part of the society and they were assigned particular roles. As Venkiteswaran sir has said in a response, the creation itself is clear of a difference in the position of male and female. They cannot be considered as equals. Man is man and woman is woman. When we are ready to accept that all men are not equal, what is the factor which prompts us to take a stand that a woman, who is totally different from a man,biologically and physically, to be equal to man. Let us leave aside the revolutionary thoughts of liberation for a while. Let us just consider our self to be part of a society which requires that we co-exist in the interest of mankind.

The Indian culture is family based. It is a pyramid like structure moving from the individual to the family to the society. So, society gains priority over the individual. Hence, to ensure that the rights of the society is kept intact, individual rights may have to be curtailed. This is applicable to male as well as female. It should be remembered that women were never considered equal to men. No doubt that we are all human beings, but we can't overlook the differences.

There was a time when women were not sure that they could do anything that a man does. I don't think the basics have changed now, but perceptions have. Women have started feeling that they are no lesser than men and they may be correct to some extent.

Let me ask a simple question. I don't think that anybody will object when I say that men have always been considered to be superior to women for whatever reasons. So, all men have grown up with that concept in mind. That feeling is a part of their pride. Now, won't their pride be hurt when suddenly their superiority begins to be questioned? I think it is natural. The question is not whether such a feeling is right or wrong, but it happens.

As some members have observed, the cocktail of cultures might have led to a deterioration in our cultural values. Both men and women have to be held equally responsible for this. The identity of men and women has changed with the developments and the change in life style. This has led to a change in the perception about the concept of pride. We have developed into two groups. One trying to remain in power and the other trying to share it. So, tussles are bound to occur. If women were submissive in the past, for whatever reasons, things are not so now. I am in no way trying to justify the atrocities against women, but I am sure that they are reactions to the attacks on the pride of a man.

I am sure that a woman won't be able to digest a man who behaves like a woman, similarly, a man also won't like it when a woman behaves like a man. We have no choice, but to admit that man and woman are two entirely different class forming a group. It is only through mutual understanding and compromises that we can co-exist peacefully. A man should understand and admit the importance of a woman and so should a woman of a man.

Our culture cannot be blamed. We should not forget that most of the liberation movements in the past took place in the west. This is because men and women in our society were clear about their positions and responsibilities and were happy with it. Women were respected as daughters, mothers and wives and they took pride in being respected as such. There was no quest for a separate identity or for division of powers. Men were supposed to earn bread for the family and to look after their safety while women were supposed to take care of the family.

Things have changed with both men and women going for jobs. The basic structure has been disturbed, the well settled principles of division of responsibilities have changed and a confusion prevailed. It is this confusion that is creating all the problems. There is a passive fight for power which is going on.

I am not saying that we should turn our backs to development or progress. But, even while considering that both men and women are equal, let us not forget the basics. Let us take pride in the structure that has become part of our culture. Respect each other as individuals and be ready for adjustments when it come to co-existence. By doing so, we will be safeguarding the pride of men as well as women.


 
#399323    Author: Sun Online     Member Level: Platinum      Member Rank: 10     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

My dear members,
This GD has been an interesting GD wherein members poured in their best views in a very elaborated way with strong arguments one better than other proving that one is not less than the other.

Finally, I will conclude to say "Indian culture is meant to safeguard the women's pride, whereas the present Indian culture is not safe to safeguard the pride of the women". When the culture itself has taken a different shape and not fit enough to safeguard the culture itself, how can we expect that the present Indian culture will safeguard our women's pride, as both men and women have caused damage to our Indian culture.

The time when we put an end to atcities to female infanticide,eve teasing, rape, dowry, ill treatment by in-laws and husbands, courts with divorce cases, Acid throwing, kidnapping, eloping, women's respect towards men etc, we can call that our women are safe, and call that our women's pride have been safeguarded well. Until then it will remain a day dream and the pride of women will be a question mark.

My conclusion is based on the very common ordinary Indian women, not the well learned and high society modern rich Indian women who are very safe with their richness without any culture to safeguard them.

Can we hope to see such a good days ahead? Or will it continue to be like this? We need to wait and see the days ahead for the positive or negative of our women's pride.

"Jai Hind"

Regards,
Sun of ISC - Let us learn good English through ISC


 
#399346    Author: Saji Ganesh        Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 42     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

I conclude with the following points-
1) The pride of a woman is a relative term and cannot be measured with a common scale.
2) Men have pride as men and women have pride as women, but being part of a society, we have to make compromises and adjustments for the well being of the society.
3) There is no point in clamoring for equality. We have to understand and admit that men and women are different and cannot be equated either way.
4) The Indian culture gives importance to the society and therefore is not much concerned about individual prides. It has been worked out on the basis of the requirements of a peaceful and progressive society and therefore, pride of the society is considered to be the pride of every individual who is part of it.
5) Development, modernity and change in the lifestyle and trends have played a role in the deterioration of our cultural values and this is having a negative effect on the present day generation.
6) Men should respect women for whatever they are and women should respect men for whatever they are. Such mutual respect will ensure their individual positions in the society and will help in bringing down gender based differences. Let us all remember that a husband cannot become a wife or vice-versa irrespective of their practical functions.
7) We should keep in mind the basic structure of our culture even while accepting changes to our perceptions and life style.
8) We should understand the limitations prescribed by our culture and try to stand by it because that is what is generally expected.

I have not tried to summarize my arguments, but have given a general view point. I enjoyed participating in this GD and could learn a lot about the different views and opinions. If I have, in the course of my arguments, hurt anybody, I seek due apologies. Thanks to all the members who have actively participated in this discussion.


 
#399348    Author: Inspired Honesty      Member Level: Silver      Member Rank: 1676     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 5

I do not know about Indian status over protecting their women for their respect and pride. In Seychelles, women do get a good and equal chance in terms of policy making, business and jobs.

Utmost importance is given to your qualification and if you are qualified to start a business and even run a whole industry, you are up for the position.

Women do not cry over here for their respect. But they fight for their position and their respect is only in the terms of whether they are able to fight for their position or not. If a woman is not able to show her position, then she stays in the kitchen.

All the crimes as mentioned b y Sun are performed by the most illiterate people who are the murk of the society. While there exists such a class of people in Seychelles, they are dealt with the police in a very hard manner and are given the worst of punishments for such heinous doings. If the law lets people loose, or if the law eats from such loose people, then such crimes and criminals would be there on the road every moment.

And if the society is not able to deal with such situations, then a person who is being afflicted as a target to such ugly notions, should leave the society and should leave the country to live in a better place.

--

With Warm Regards
Inspired Honesty


 
#399353    Author: Chitra Rana      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 255     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

Friends, GD is towards its end. There is still certain thing not clear for certain member about difference in freedom or individuality. They believe equality is not something which is needed to be discuss even.

My Indian men who is not ready to think of a women of his equal status, having equal position, speaking publicly about equal rights. Even atrocities against women are justified as mere reaction of women effort or strive in order to stand equal to men.

Men and women are different biologically, I accept. May be physical strength extremes limit are different for both, accepted. If this is about giving reasons(what ever one can think) only, may be this is because over generation girls have become adapted to be weaker as there was no much use of extreme strength.

Mentally girls have proven their equal mental strength where we got chance, if here someone says why number is very less then, because we have very very less opportunities.

Such men might have felt shameful or might be still feeling the same to have Rani Laxmi bai or any other women name anyone has taken in this discussion. And I do not know whether he may justify next crime to be revenge against their achievement.

A men's pride is hurt in seeing women in equal status, not in beating her, not in using her, physically and not in harassing her mentally for whole lifetime.

These thought might be of a person who do not either have sister/ daughter or they do not actually love them.
Ask a father what he want for her daughter, he want a husband who love her, listen to her and good education and career for surety in case first condition fails she may survive on her own. This is what I observed around me. May be I am lucky to be surrounded with good men. But I feel every girl want such father, brother and husband.


I login to conclude but now feeling what should I say as conclusion!

Here is what I have to summarize whole discussion is Indian original culture have respect to women and safeguards women pride but later itself has become the most ridiculously used reason to suppress women and her pride.

All men are not same, all women are not same, but I believe with education and with more civilization, our society will ensure more safety for women. It may take a long time but things are in process and people are becoming aware.

As a responsible member of family we have proved our worth very nicely, now we want to have role in society also, so it is must to come up with that level of maturity. As a women our family honor is like most important thing for us, if we will be a part of organisation and society responsibility will be taken in same level of responsibility. Trust us and support us, with social acceptance and support we will be able to do this more efficiently. And we will believe in family pattern, social pattern too! If a women is working still she is a mother, and in all other good relations too.

Regards:
Chitra Rana


 
#399360    Author: Bhakti Savla      Member Level: Diamond      Member Rank: 25     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 2

@Ramakrishna (#398735):
Sorry for the delayed response. You are straying away from the moot point of this GD and of my responses. I have lived in foreign countries like England, Netherlands, etc. for more than 2.5 years and understood that most Indians blindly take a dig at western culture when the reality is completely different. People just relate to dressing sense as western culture or live-in relationships as western culture. The truth is that in several western countries, men and women have equal respect for each other. A foreign woman's family doesn't have to go bankrupt to get her married. A woman and man share equal responsibilities in handling household matters, financial matters and kids. Many Indian men just believe that their only responsibility is earning money, whereas many women earn money, handle household work, handle kids, etc. In India, there is literally no balance between the responsibilities handled by a man and a woman. Hence, I feel lucky to have found a perfect life partner who understands all these things and shares responsibilities equally making me feel important in all matters. In cities, things are slowly changing, but, still it is a long way to go.

In foreign countries, rarely do we see or hear cases of a husband beating up his wife regularly. Many Indian men don't feel ashamed of asking for dowry. All these things are part of family values. Divorce cases, extra marital affairs are found more in Indian families than in foreign countries. So, in what sense is western culture bad than Indian culture.

In western countries, I have experienced unknown people on the streets, in supermarkets, stores, offices, etc. greeting us with a big smile and statements like "Good Morning/Afternoon/Evening.Hope you are doing alright?" Every student, working person, senior citizen, etc. wishes and says "Thank You" to the bus driver, cab driver, supermarket staff, office guard, office receptionist, etc. In India, people are so busy that they don't even realize what difference such pleasing words can make. Again, these things are part of family values.

To summarize the points I have mentioned in my three responses in this GD, I would say that Indian culture has failed to safeguard the pride of Indian women since centuries. Women haven't been given due respect in majority of the Indian homes. Some of the traditions and practises in India are completely male centric. Things are changing slowly because of better educational facilities and influence of western culture, and we can only hope that the next generation women will be able to get good respect at home as well in society.

Thanks & Best Regards,
Bhaktee


 
#399362    Author: Sun Online     Member Level: Platinum      Member Rank: 10     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 1

Dear Members,
After a prolonged discussion and conclusions on this topic, I wish to conclude this topic quoting a relevant point to this discussion. As I always say that it is the proud feelings of a woman that makes her pride. Out of the many more proud feelings, I shall quote one simple feeling as an example to prove that our Indian culture is not safeguarding the pride of our women. And women also part of it. Men also share it for non compliance by women.

Members, You all must be aware how important the hair is. Especially to a women, hair on head is very very important. The hair is the pride of any women. A hairless lady is not desired by the males even other females. Hair is given due importance by the Gods and Goddesses. Even the Gods had serious discussions on this women's hair issue. So hair is the pride of any women. Hope no women will disagree with this point about hair.

A women's pride can be noticed well by the way she cares and nurtures it. Indian women are supposed to maintain long hair to be beautiful. A ladies character can be analysed and understood by the way she cares, nurtures and maintains the hair. The Indian literature speaks volumes about the ladies hair. So hair is the symbol of women's pride. And hair means much to Indian culture.

In these days, Are we seeing the ladies with their long grown beautiful hair in our country? Do our ladies respect their hair? No... It is rarely seen. It is the rarest of the rare scene to witness a lady with beautiful long hair with beautiful plaits with flowers adoring the plaits. The culture has changed making the ladies to make their hair short for their own convenience of less maintenance.It is a lazy attitude of women in the busy world. The hair culture has been modified with many short hair culture like pop hair; pony tail; and many more jumping hair tail styles. I can boldly say that 90 percent of our women are not pride with their hair as per Indian culture.

Now to answer the question whether our Indian culture safeguards the pride of our women. No... When the women themselves do not safeguard their own pride of their important hair, how can we get the answer from our culture to safe guard the women's pride. We ourselves have damaged our own good culture. Not only hair culture but many other culture with respect to women of India.

Members,
I have quoted a simple sample to say that we have deviated and are away from our original Indian culture. Hence we cannot say that our culture safeguards our women's pride when our women themselves are not safeguarding our own Indian culture.

I have said only about simple hair culture and the pride of our women. If our simple women cannot be pride of their own hair which is the culture of our country, how can the women safeguard other interests of women, to be proud and call it as their pride? There are much more to say where our Indian women slipped away from our Indian culture. After the hair culture, we can take the subject of modesty and chastity of women, behaviour of women, Women's respect towards men in our country that needs a great discussion. It needs many pages to write the history of women and women's pride in present India.

"Jai Hind"
I

Regards,
Sun of ISC - Let us learn good English through ISC


 
#399364    Author: Nadeem Naqvi      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 95     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

@ Jyoti Madam, your response #399107.

QUOTE: 'But with time the teaching and effectiveness of these movement faded away and we reach to another turning point where we started comparing our society with the west. This resulted in a confusion and mixed feeling about the identity and about what could be best for us. Everyone is confused as they do not know whether to take pride in being associated with out past culture or with the modern western culture.' UNQUOTE

Now you have yourself reached to the point that there is confusion. Mind it, I am not all by myself discussion planning to discuss Indian culture with the Western culture, you have instigated me. This is what I have been asking for in all my responses as to what is the problem area. Now, coming to the point that we are we aping the other culture which is not our? The Western people are saying, "Hare Ram! Hare Krishan!" but we are trying to follow their culture. We should understand that if their culture was too good then what has made them to renounce it and follow our culture? On the contrary I am not confused about my culture, may be the people who are having lesser faith in their culture they may feel that way.

The real problem is that the females are confused about their state and in this confusion they are not able to understand as to which culture is best for them. The Indian culture is so precious that it has even given important statue to the prostitutes. May be some are not aware about it but I would like to state the fact. On the occasion of Durga Puja the idol which is made has to be made from the mud collected from the red-light areas. It is begged for by the priest in the early morning from the prostitutes and this mud is used to make the private part of the idol. If this is not done then the idol of Goddess Durga is not considered to be auspicious for worship. This is the importance of our rich India culture which has importance for all the segments of our society.

There are no limitations as you have mentioned rather it is the influence of the other cultures which is creating problems for the people who have less faith in their own culture.

We should stop aping the other cultures if we really want to enjoy our culture to the fullest.

It is my last comment on this GD and thus I would like to emphasize that the females have to finalise the point at to what should be the points which can make the society problem free for them.

Regards,
Nadeem Naqvi


World without God is Zero without One!


 
#399367    Author: Nadeem Naqvi      Member Level: Gold      Member Rank: 95     Date: 15/Feb/2013   Rating: 2 out of 52 out of 5     Points: 0

REQUEST to the editors of this section: The text which I am posting here are my own words from my blog, which I am posting here as it is relevant to this discussion and as the time is less I could not re-write the whole text again. Thus, it is my humble request to allow it as a part of discussion. Thanks

The basic problem which the females are not able to understand can be cleared from this story.

There was a rich man who had love for keeping cat and pigeon as pet. Both the creatures being the natural enemy of each other, was creating problem for the rich man to keep as pet. His advisors suggested him to announce a reward for the person who can provide an alternative for keeping the two as pet without any problem. The same was done and many came in but all failed. A person came in shabbily dressed and said that he can provide a solution to the desire of the rich man. He asked for a sack, pigeons, cat and an empty room. On being provided the requested things the person went inside the room.

After an hour he came out of the room drenched in sweat and asked the rich man to accompany him inside. The rich man was surprised to see the cat sitting next to the pigeons and even the pigeons were busy feeding. He duly rewarded the person and happily watched his two enemy pet right in front of his eyes enjoying each other's company. To his surprise the cat jumped and caught hold of his most valued pigeon and this made him to rage at it. He quickly ordered to fetch the person who has taken the reward. Rich man got furious on seeing him and said, "My cat has killed one of my most precious pigeon".

The person said, "Then what can I do?"

Rich man, "You promised that the cat will not kill pigeon…"

The person, "Did I mean that it will never happen again…!"

"No…," was an instant reply from the rich person.

"Then what can I do now?" asked the person.

The rich man cooled down and asked, "Then what did you do with them that they were sitting next to each other for more than an hour?"

The person laughed and said, "It was very simple. I caught your cat and kept it in the sack. Then for more than an hour I just spin the sack and then left the cat out of it. The cat was in under the influence of the spinning motion and just could not make out what was happening. The moment it came into senses, it killed your pigeon."

The moral of the story: The world has done the same with women as the person had done with the cat. Women cannot understand what is right or wrong for them. To wear skimpy clothes or to wear decent one! To dress modestly or impudently. This is what the women will understand when the cochlea will settle down of the nausea.

Regards,
Nadeem Naqvi


World without God is Zero without One!


 
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