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  • Category: Miscellaneous

    Is it good to pass casual comments on Father of the Nation by Amit Shaw?

    At present there is wide debate occuring in media, political parties and people, that the comments passed on Mahatma Gandhi by BJP President Amit Shaw. BJP intentionally minimising the greatness of Gandhiji by various means is highlighted in print media recently. Praising Godsey, praising Modi to the standards of Gandhiji, spreading Gandhiji is the reason for backwardness of India etc. in BJP circles is one kind of tactics followed by that party. While entire World is praising Gandhiji as the role model for human personality for the present day World, but is it good to see our Indians themselves reducing the honour of Father of our Nation?
  • #600638
    Yes the Chathur Bania comment on our father of the Nation Mahatma Gandhi has come from BJP President Amit Shah when the Nation is taking pride with Swachh Bharath cleaning machine taking from the cue of Mahatma. When the Nation is giving such a pride for our Gandhi, Amit Shah chosen to down play with wrong comment which eventually drawn wrath across the country. By his saying the prestige and pride and honor of our father of Nation has reduced and every one needs to be condemned. I just cannot understand why such comments should come at all from greats of a party and why PM Modi is silent on this.
    K Mohan
    'Idhuvum Kadandhu Pogum "
    Even this challenging situation would ease

  • #600644
    Some brief facts:

    1. Jawaharlal Nehru called him 'Father of the Nation', but defied him at the time of independence by advocating partition of the country.
    2. He advocated rural economy, whereas Nehru stressed on urban economy and folowed that path.
    3. He asked Indian Government to pay Rs. 55 crore to the Government of Pakistan after partition. Nehru and Patel were extremely reluctant. He had to start another fast to force Nehru and Patel toe his line.
    4. When Netaji (not the present fake Netaji) Subhas defeated Pattabhi Sitaramaiah (the candidate openly supported by him) and became the President of Congress Working Committee, he encouraged non-cooperation by other leaders like Nehru and Azad andultimately ousted Subhas even after he had won with huge majority. This indicates his inflated ego and encouragement of infighting within Congress, which still exists.

    Now what do these facts prove? Were/Are the Congress leaders respecting Mohandas Gandhi? How many memorials of Mohandas Gandhi are there in the country compared to the memorials of Nehru-Gandhi family members?

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  • #600650
    In my opinion it is not good to comment on father of nation. We can't ignore the contribution of Mahatma Gandhi in the independence of India. We specially I was not there at the time of independence and do not know what was the circumstances at that time. May be possible that you do not agree with the ideology of Mahatma Gandhi but you can not comment personally on Mahatma Gandhi.
    It is also do not Indian culture to comment on him.

    Honesty is the best policy.

  • #600651
    Things what have happened in the past happened according to the conditions and situations of that time. Without any doubt we can admire the greatness, honesty and sacrifice of those people who fought for the independence of our Nation in whatever way they thought as good. So it is not good for us to research on their positives and negatives in this present time. People of all generations through out the independent struggle movement and after getting independence recognised and honoured Gandhiji as the person who is responsible for bringing independence for India. In all top international surveys till today Gandhiji was recognised as the best human personality who has born on this earth.

  • #600652
    In the Upanishada, we have learnt: "Pranipatena, Pariprashnena, Sebaya". We are giving undue stress on "Pranipatena" (to give respect), but forgetting "Pariprashnena" (to ask questions).
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  • #600653
    Respecting or agreeing to Mahatma is altogether a different issue, but here Amit Shah has raised the caste and their character and comparing it with Gandhi which is not acceptable.
    K Mohan
    'Idhuvum Kadandhu Pogum "
    Even this challenging situation would ease

  • #600669
    What more can we expect from Amit Shah who was a Stock Broker before being employed by Modi to engage the same strategy in politics? It comes as no surprise because the game-plan included the ouster of senior and recognized leaders like Advani, Joshi and even Vajpayee. The ultimate aim was clear; it should be Modi and Modi alone! I sincerely hope that the snake does not turn and bite the hand that has fed it with milk!

    Mahatma Gandhi does not lose his status or stature just because someone like Amit Shah has made such a statement but let us not overlook the caste mentality these people still carry and nourish! With due respect to all those nationalists (so called) and patriots, I am sorry to say that its a shame! Hope Modi will try to clear the air once he is back from his foreign tour!

    "To be proud of knowledge is to be blind with light" - Benjamin Franklin

  • #600671
    How many of us know that Amit Shah is also a 'Bania' by caste like Mohandas Gandhi and many other politicians?
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  • #600697
    At the outset, I accept that Mahatma Gandhi fought for our independence by following his own strategy and successful. He has been respected by all as Father of the Nation. Majority saying is always correct. So we can't criticize openly such a great man. Salutations to him. Amith Shah has to say sorry publicly for his comments against Mahatma.

    But the main worry is even after so many years of independence why our country is like this. Who is responsible for this? I say the people promoted by Mahatma are the real culprits. Nehru family and the so called Gandhis are responsible for this. But we respect them also as they are from Nehru- Gandhi family. There lies the problem.
    Even today Grand Grandson of Nehru is ready to rule you. But fortunately people are aware of these people's nature. So they are cautious.
    My sincere request is how we are highlighting the limitations of present BJP people, the same way praise their good accomplishments also. Only highlighting some statements and forgetting their good deeds is not good.

    drrao
    always confident

  • #600712
    I totally differ with you Dr. Rao. In strict sense, who was the last ruler from the Nehru-Gandhi family and when did he rule the country? We have the non-Nehru/Gandhi family members at the helm of affairs since 1989 and continue to blame the family for everything, which is not correct. Why you are driving away the main point at issue in the thread? Do you accept the comments against Mahatma or not?

    What's wrong if the great grand son of a former Prime Minister is craving for the post in a democratic system? Is it not applicable for the grand son of a former Chief Minister in AP who became a Minister recently? It's all in the game and finally the Voter is the King and we don't know what he would decide and whom he would tick for the post.

    Regards,
    Jagdish

  • #600715
    My God! Some people are so prejudiced against a particular profession (stock broking)! Ironically, such people talk in support of a one-case barrister and another briefless barrister. These highly prejudiced people also talk about caste prejudice.

    Mr. Patro: Please don't forget the system which was in vogue during UPA regime. The Queen and the Prince used to enjoy absolute power without an iota of responsibility. I could have stated much more, but am restraining myself.

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  • #600749
    Mr. Jagdish, I have not gone away from the main point. I have given my opinion on the topic in the first para itself. I request you to go through my response once again, if you have a little time.
    I have extended the discussion in the next para. I never supported a Chief Minister's grandson becoming Minister in Andhra Pradesh. My point is , anyone in this democratic country can become, Minister, Chief Minister, Prime Minister or even President with his own caliber. Otherwise the country will be at a loss and the people will be at a loss. A person with no tongue was made to sit at the top most position for 10 years and ruled the country by a mother and son without any responsibility. Nothing more I can say.
    Of course each one will have his own views and nothing wrong in expressing them in this country. Some one may agree or disagree.

    drrao
    always confident

  • #600753
    I think we need to read History afresh. May be the Mahatma is no longer considered worthy of being regarded as the 'Father of the Nation'! As is in vogue, there appears to be a competition being conducted with Gandhiji against Netaji, Savarkar and the likes.

    So much so Bapuji, apologies for having read history before facts could be fixed by experts! If you were once thrown out of a train in South Africa then, God bless your soul that you are no longer alive to be thrown out of a Country for which you have given your life. Sorry Bapu, 'nationalism' and 'patriotism' have been reinterpreted and those who think differently are either considered liberals or anti-nationals.

    May the enlightened souls lead us to peace and contentment (hopefully)!

    "To be proud of knowledge is to be blind with light" - Benjamin Franklin

  • #600756
    Yes, we must read correct, impartial history. We must know the activities of one-case barrister and another briefless barrister during 1938-1948. We must know the true history of partition in India. We must know that not only Mohandas Gandhi, but also many other freedom fighters fought for the independence of the country. And those innumerable freedom fighters sacrificed their life for the country without any ego. They also didn't get the opportunity to stay in the first-class prison of British and write books.

    Truth must be stated without hesitation.

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  • #600759
    I am grateful to the "Chatur Baniya", "One Briefless Barrister" and "One case Barrister" who made it possible not only to me but to the millions of the people to live in independent India. Gandhiji is the greatest ever person to have born so far. This "Briefless Barrister" brought millions of people together to achieve independence for our country. Some people may think that if only that decision or this decision was taken, this would have happened or that would have happened. It is all hypothetical. The fact remains that Gandhiji was instrumental in bringing millions of people together to achieve independence to India. It is very easy to comment than to achieve anything.
    " Be Good and Do Good "

  • #600760
    Having blamed the British, now we have our own countrymen calling him 'briefless barrister'! Shame! So much so for our widened vision, thanks to all those foreign visits by our PM, the so-called chaiwala from Gujarat. The love and passion for Netaji is visible though hidden and we do not leave a stone unturned to term the people (?) from the valley as anti-national! Will we any longer be true to ourselves? I doubt!
    "To be proud of knowledge is to be blind with light" - Benjamin Franklin

  • #600765
    Amit Shaw's reference to Gandhiji as chatur bania reflects his level of understanding of Gandhiji. Nothing will diminish the greatness of Gandhiji.
    " Be Good and Do Good "

  • #600767
    Sorry Partha. Your response at #600756 is totally one sided and lending support to someone who doesn't deserve it. Nobody would accept the comments against Mahatma and the discussion would demean the greatness of our veterans. Better we should leave it here and should not talk like politicians.
    Regards,
    Jagdish

  • #600769
    Mr. Patro: I am not very strong in English. But let me try to analyse the phrase 'chatur bania'. Why are you taking this word 'bania' derogatory? Amit Shah (not Shaw) is himself a Gujarati 'bania'. How can he make derogatory comment against his own caste?

    Moreover why are people translating chatur' as 'shrewd'? 'Chatur' can also be translated as 'intelligent', isn't it?

    I stand by my previous comments. Those who are criticizing me kindly prove me factually wrong.

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  • #600771
    #600760: I didn't call Mohandas Gandhi a briefless barrister. After reading 'My experiments with truth', I know very well that he did fighht one case in his career as barrister, for which he had to go to South Africa. But I don't know what happened to his client in that case.

    His main 'chela' (sidekick) was a briefless barrister.

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  • #600775

    Gandhiji did fight one very important case. It is for the people of India against the British. He pleaded his case successfully and obtained independence to our country. It may not be in a courtroom but in public with non-violence as his weapon.


    " Be Good and Do Good "

  • #600777
    Yes, he only pleaded. Many others fought and wrested freedom from the British.
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  • #600778
    Partha, could you please name the 'others' who fought for our Independence by leading from the front? I can understand your support for the saffron ideology but do you need to stoop so low as to degrade a man who is recognized and respected worldwide?
    "To be proud of knowledge is to be blind with light" - Benjamin Franklin

  • #600779
    Hats off KVRR very well said.

    I am thinking, what if our history is actually rewritten. What if Gandhi's name is wiped out of the annals of history? Will we have to pay more money in taxes so new currency can be printed and minted? Are we looking at another demonetization – a total one, this time? Or will this help us become truly cashless?

    I am thinking is this the end of the party game I remember playing – the 'Queen of Sheeba'. The part where the Queen asks for a picture of Gandhi – and we dig into our purses and wallets for a currency note and dart across to be the first to hand it over, and win a prize.

    But, jokes aside. This is serious stuff.

    To respond to some of the points raised –

    1. Derogatory comment against own caste -The comment was not about a community, but about an individual. We might belong to a community or caste, but that does not stop us from talking derogatorily about another from the same caste.
    2. Shrewd or intelligent – We generally judge the meaning, based on the tone and tenor and who utters the words.
    3. Barrister – One case, briefless. How does that matter? Why is a professional past being dug out? It is irrelevant.
    4. Memorials – Again, what is the context here?

    How does what someone else did or did not do elucidate one's stand to what is being asked?

    Underestimate me...that'll be fun!

  • #600781
    Some Members have asked me probing questions. I genuinely appreciate these questions and will try to answer these questions during 1 p.m. to 2 p.mas per my understanding and study.

    However, I would like to make myself clear that my responses in this thread are not related to any so-called saffron ideology. This is my personal evaluation of leaders involved in freedom movement and immediately thereafter and purely based upon my study.

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  • #600782
    Agree with the response 600651.Things will happen always according to the conditions, situations and time.
    Gandhi ji was perceived very differently by same people who struggled along with him in the fight for Independence. Many people were against the partition. Many consider him as a sell-out and hijacking Congress Party, making all policies according to his ideology and not doing what was necessary. There were people who supported him and there were people against him. It is natural that the descendants of his opponents will try to minimize his greatness always.
    But, technically he made independence possible through pacifism and hunger strikes.
    No need to question his legacy now

  • #600794
    Now I am trying to reply the questions.

    (a) "I can understand your support for the saffron ideology but do you need to stoop so low as to degrade a man who is recognized and respected worldwide?"-Choice of words is very important. Where have I stooped so low? Which of my statements proves it?

    (b) "What more can we expect from Amit Shah who was a Stock Broker before being employed by Modi to engage the same strategy in politics?"-Doesn't this statement prove the deep prejudice against the Prime Minister of the biggest democracy? Doesn't it prove deep prejudice against the President of the largest political party of the biggest democracy? I am not ready to accept advice from such prejudiced person.

    (c) Now let us discuss the contribution, dilly-dallying, vacciliation, betrayal of Mohandas Gandhi. But we have to have an open mind to discuss these issues. I am mentioning some of these very briefly.
    (i) Why was Mohandas Gandhi awarded Kaizar-e-Hind by the British Government? Members may kindly study the History.
    (ii) Members may kindly study the adverse impact of abrupt withdrawal of the first non-co-operation movement by Gandhi after Chauri-chura incident. Many historians feel that the sudden withdrawal delayed India's freedom by at least five years.
    (iii) What was the rationale of Gandhi to forge an alliance with Khilafat Committee during 1920s? Why Jinnah was so dejected by the step taken by Gandhi and left Congress? Please study.
    (iv) Why did Gandhi and Motilal Nehru betray Swarajya Party and Chittaranjan Das in early 20s? If withdrawal from electoral process was a principled stand, then why did Gandhi allow Congress to join Government in late 30s and early 40s? Study and reply.
    (v) What was Gandhi's reaction to Bhagat Singh's activities and conviction/death sentence?What was his opinion about Chandrasekhar Azad?
    (vi) Who was the root-cause behind the present harmful reservation system? Who signed Poona Pact with Ambedkar?
    (vii) Why did Gandhi encourage infighting within Congress by asking Congress leaders to revolt against democratically-elected Congress President Subhash Bose? Was it because of his inflated ego or was it because of his perception of loss of popularity?
    (viii) In Midnapore District of Bengal, the local Congress leaders formed self-Government by peacefully replacing British administration. This independent Government ran more than one and a half years during 1942-44. Why did Gandhi advise those leaders to surrender before the British and go to jail?
    (ix) What was Gandhi's opinion about naval mutiny of 1946? How many Members have studied this fact?What did Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan (Frontier Gandhi) say about partition?
    (x) Rabindranath Tagore first addressed Gandhi as Mahatma. But do the Members know what did Tagore say about Gandhi during 1939-41?
    (xi) What was Gandhi's advice to the hapless Hindu and Sikh refugees of Bengal and Panjab during partition? Do the Members know the advice?
    (xii) What did Gandhi say about Netaji Subhas vis-a-vis Nehru just before his death? How many Members know this?

    (d) I do know that many Members would start ridiculing and abusing me after reading this response. But I would like to state that every day, every month new facts about Indian freedom movement are coming to light, and the role of Gandhi and Congress is being examined on the light of new facts. Now, despite the inflated role of Congress which projected in the History books at various levels, all of us know that the mass movement against the British started even in 1776 (Sanyasi-Fakir movement, Chuarh rebellion, Santhal rebellion, Munda rebellion), it continued in 1857 and thereafter.

    (e) So far as mass leaders during British period are concerned, Bal Gangadhar Tilak, Lala Lajpat Rai, Bipin Chandra Pal, Chittaranjan Das were mass leaders even before Gandhi. They nurtured Gandhi politically and handed over the leadership to him.

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  • #600797
    Many of the questions raised by you belong to the history. The person who can answer certain issues raised by you is no more today to defend himself against the criticism levelled. Whatever you or someone may say is an interpretation by the historians only. They differ from person to person depending upon their perception of the issues. I want you to raise each and every point in separate forum threads so that they can be discussed according to our own perceptions. You have posed some questions without elaborating your say on them so that they can be discussed.
    Any movement where millions of people participate will be without any direction if there is no leader to lead them. There were so many people who participated and sacrificed their lives to the cause of independence of our country. They all believed in Gandhiji's leadership in spite of having differences on many issues. Anything dug out now is not going to diminish the greatness of Gandhiji.

    " Be Good and Do Good "

  • #600798
    Every coin has two sides. Nobody would dispute the fact that the trio Lal, Bal and Pal were mass leaders during their time and leaders like C R Das and Motilal Nehru fought for the freedom struggle. Gandhiji never said that he only started the struggle and fired the imagination among the Indians. Though the path chosen by Chandrasekhar Azad and Bhagat Singh was different, we never studied the history that Gandhiji underplayed their valour.

    It is not wise to raise such silly questions to prove our stand to be correct as a leader who was leading such a mass movement might have to take decisions spontaneously as per the prevailing conditions. In the later years, the decision may look to be not good for us but historians and leaders worldwide have praised Bapuji for his determination and the way in which he led the movement peacefully.

    Regards,
    Jagdish

  • #600799
    "It is not wise to raise such silly questions to prove our stand to be correct"-This is the mindset I was talking about. Very few of us would like to question or delve deeper to know the truth. We have forgotten what the Upanishada has tought us "Pranipatena, PARIPRASHNENA, Sebaya". We never ask questions.
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  • #600809
    #600797: Mr. KVRR: "The person who can answer certain issues raised by you is no more today to defend himself against the criticism levelled. "-The presence of the main actors is not necessary to unerstand the flow of events. The documents, written materials an other historical evidences help us to understand the flow of events happened during a particular point of time.

    "You have posed some questions without elaborating your say on them so that they can be discussed. "-You are correct. This is simply because I don't want to unnecessary influence others by my views. All the Members of ISC are highly qualified and so it is felt that they can easily read the materials available on those particular issues mentioned by me. Thereafter they can form their opinion about Mohandas Gandhi.

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  • #600824
    The absence of the person makes it difficult to obtain first-hand information. The interpretations vary from person to person. In the absence of valid and authenticated information, the aspirations cast against the person do not hold good.
    The members of the ISC cannot be easily influenced by merely reading someone's views. I hope they have the scientific temperament to assimilate the information and form their own opinions. I am very curious to know your say on the issues raised by you. Let us discuss them one by one to know the truth . I am hearing some of them for the first time. We have already drifted away from the main point of this thread. Hope you will make them known in some other appropriate threads.

    " Be Good and Do Good "

  • #600826
    #600824: I sincerely like your reasoned argument. Kindly let me know on what issue you want to know my view. I will raise a separate thread, but not very sure whether such thread will be allowed to be discussed. Nowadays most of my threads are being deleted.

    "The absence of the person makes it difficult to obtain first-hand information. "-First hand information is not a must for co-relating and re-constructing historical events. Historians have many other tools for this purpose.

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  • #600843
    On any issue you like. Relating and reconstructing will always depend on how you want to look at it.
    " Be Good and Do Good "

  • #600853
    Partha, why go for a separate thread? You can shoot your ideas in this thread itself.

    You are very much correct in assuming/ presuming that a thread on the same lines 'will' be deleted; not because it is by Partha but because we need to follow certain guidelines!

    Partha, you pay homages to Rama and Krishna but is reluctant to accept Gandhiji. I am not placing them on the same platform but, strange!

    "To be proud of knowledge is to be blind with light" - Benjamin Franklin

  • #600856
    "Partha, you pay homages to Rama and Krishna but is reluctant to accept Gandhiji. I am not placing them on the same platform but, strange!"-Does this comment has any relevance to this thread?

    Who will award negative marks for this irrelevant response (#600853)?

    How do people know whether I pay homages to Rama or Krishna, or not? Are they keeping track of my daily activities. I am genuinely amused!

    If a person pays homages to Rama and Krishna, will he have to pay homage to Mohandas Gandhi? What a logic!

    "Partha, why go for a separate thread? You can shoot your ideas in this thread itself. "-Is the present thread meant to discuss Mohandas Gandhi's activities during freedom movement? Then why should I mention these in this thread? Even Mr. KVRR asked me to discuss the issues in separate threads.

    We should not post ridiculous responses to allow people ridicule us.

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  • #600866
    "Is the present thread meant to discuss Mohandas Gandhi's activities during freedom movement? Then why should I mention these in this thread? "

    Ha! Ha! Now I am amused. So, it has finally dawned on you that you have deviated from the main thread.

    Underestimate me...that'll be fun!

  • #600868
    #600866: No, Madam. I did not deviate. My detailed response (#600781) was in response to specific questions earlier asked by some Members.
    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #600870
    #600868 - I beg to differ. The deviation started when you posted 'Some brief facts'. The main question "Is it good to pass casual comments on Father of the Nation by Amit Shaw?" is still not answered, by you. So, deviation it is.

    Specific questions were asked as clarifications, to what you posted. Your detailed response is a continuation or culmination of all that you have said in your other responses. It has been a deviation, throughout.

    Underestimate me...that'll be fun!

  • #600871

    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.


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