You must Sign In to post a response.
  • Category: India

    Is there an impending threat to Democracy in India? Is it safe or is it in the danger zone?


    It is a hot topic under discussion in different forums as to whether the democratic fabric of India is under a threat. We might have different opinions. Let us discuss the issue without bringing in our political affiliations. Let us base our views on the basic thread provided by our Constitution. Let us have a fair and unbiased discussion without any personal or political attacks and argue on the base of changes that the society is facing and analyze whether the same amounts to a degradation of the values assured by our Constitution.



    Sometimes when I watch certain news channel I feel that the news that's been portrayed in front of the public is not genuine but exaggerated and biased. During the phase of demonetization, the channel which displayed both sides of the situation was banned from airing. People who expressed their opinion were arrested. People are getting shot just because they are practicing their religion.

    Just a few days back, infants died in hospitals due to lack of oxygen. But now the minister has totally denied that is the cause even when everyone knows the truth.

    Where are we heading to? Is there a threat to our freedom ensured by our Constitution? Is our Democratic fabric safe? Please discuss.
  • #606141
    Democracy is in terrible danger in our country. Some Government-aided religious educational institutions declined to sing National anthem on this Independence Day. In Kerala, immature girls are being lured in the trap of so-called love and are being taken to Syria and Yemen to become objects of lust of ISIS animals. When the Apex Court of the land orders NIA to investigate the incident, the 'secu-libu' brigade of the country objects this order. National security gets least importance to the intellectuals of the country. Different petty criminal cases are more important to them.
    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #606156
    I strongly agree with Partha this democracy is leading this country to a trench from where it would be impossible to come back. Television channels reports are totally biased and exaggerated. They always favor a particular community. When a stone pelter was tied to a jeep then all the media channels started speaking in favor of that stone pelter blaming Indian Army by telling that its a matter of shame for Army that they have done such an inhuman practice. The same news channels does not even take the notice of Kerala and West Bengal where Hindus are being killed on daily basis.
    This democracy has handcuffed the government to take any action against such traitors. People are openly challenging the government that they will never sing the national song and national song. Their religion gets in danger when they will say Vande Matarm and Bharat Mata ki Jay. They are openly doing anti nationalist activities but media never want to notice them. Students from a university are openly speaking against the country and taking favor of a terrorist who killed many innocent people but the government can not initiate any strict action against them because the democracy has handcuffed him.
    If the government will take any action against them then the whole media and intellectuals start shouting that intolerance is increasing in this country. Minorities are no more safe. Democracy in the country is under threat. Government is acting like dictator.
    In my opinion there is need of dictator in this country who can take strict action against such traitors and award them with the right punishment.

  • #606163
    I wont agree with the author. Democracy is nothing to do with the governance. Democracy is the great process of electing the person being deemed fit to the position to which he is contesting by casting vote and that is called election through mass. By virtue of that power , the person is authorized to take decisions which are detrimental to the cause of his voters. But over the years we have seen that politicians are taking votes as granted by promising heaven on the palm and greasing the voters with money and thus when came to power, they are showing arrogance of governance and fuming inside the voter would burst at the time of next election. What I feel that when there is no strong opposition for the ruling party to mend, such actions are going to happen and there is no other way to go but to punish the erring politicians or the party during next elections.
    K Mohan
    'Idhuvum Kadandhu Pogum "
    Even this challenging situation would ease

  • #606174
    Now almost all of us agree that democracy is in danger in India. So the logical question is how to bring it out from the danger zone. I feel that when we talk about democracy in India, we support the concept of the nation-state. So, to protect the democracy we have to protect the nation-state. We have to take up the termites which are trying to destroy the edifice of the nation-state called India.

    Merciless destruction of the termites is required. There has been no pest-control in this great country for the last 70 years. We have ignored the necessity of pest-control. Now we must not lose time further.

    The over-aged students who talk about 'ajadi' from the country must be taught the value of the country. Their grant must be immediately stopped. They must be kicked out from the university, the environment of which they have been vitiating over the years (in some cases, for more than ten years). The teachers, who are misguiding these youth of 30+ years, must be made accountable. They must give full account of their teaching activities before release of their salary.

    The leaders who give excuses for not singing National Anthem, must be respected. Their choice must be heard and they may be sent westwards (say 1000 kilometers) so that they can fearlessly sing a new national anthem : "Pak Sar Zamin Saad Baad".

    Those who demand limited freedom of choice of food must be cordially invited to take part in 'pork festival' and 'dog festival' (dog festivals are held in Korea and China-may be also in some parts of North-East). They must be taught to enjoy new and different varieties of meat.

    Those who demand and support the right for forcible conversion or conversion by allurement or for the sake of women's right (but strongly object 'ghar-wapsi'), must be sent to those great countries for permanently settling there to have a grand vision of women's right in those societies.

    These are some ways of saving democracy in India. Other Members will definitely suggest some more.

    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #606189
    I feel so small and naive among the scholars over here who have expressed their opinion, nevertheless even I would like to express mine though it might create controversy of some sort. But this is what I have seen and understood.

    Democracy has not handcuffed the government, it's the government who has handcuffed. In which democratic country has the government decided what should cook in one's kitchen? Singing National anthem is not the only way of showing that you are patriotic. In a Democratic country, we need to respect other's religion, by singing national anthem if it affects the principles of their religion, who are we to say that they are anti-national?

    When BJP won the election, Ashok Singhal made a public statement that India will be a Hindu nation by 2020. I have learned in History books in school that Democracy allows the practice of all religion freely. The above statement made by Ashok Singhal says otherwise. I don't know if people are turning blind eye to what's happening or they actually want it to happen.

    Let me tell of another incident, when Beef was banned in Maharashtra there was a discussion in Times Now with Arnab Goswami. In which he was totally against the decision but when he started his own channel, he was supporting this ban. Why this hypocrisy?

    Demonetization was brought to curb black money but with the new notes, I see that it has only increased. Demonetization was such a disaster, initially, this was proposed by Dr. Manmohan Singh and that time the opposition strongly opposed it but during their rule, they are hailing it as if it was such a huge achievement. GST again was proposed by Dr. Manmohan Singh, even that was strongly opposed.

    All I can see is hypocrisy that's why I asked where are we heading to?

  • #606197
    A very interesting thread. Democracy is not in danger. But in the name of democracy the media and some leaders are tying down the hands of the government to stop them from taking action.
    Here the main culprits are media and some selfish political leaders.
    Now I feel in this country the majority community people are treated as foreigners without any rights. They are the second grade citizens. A person who is safeguarding the country is the villain to the media and some leaders as he has punished a person who is trying to kill them by throwing stones.
    An educational Institution which is being run by our funds is not ready to sing National Anthem. It is not a crime in this Country but asking them to celebrate independence day is a mistake.
    A person who is more than 30years in the guise of student staying in the hostel keeping his wife in ladies hostel as she was also a student and enjoying merely with the money of taxpayers who earn money by struggling 24 X 7 and genuinely paying tax. The so called Professors encourage them is the real democracy of our country.
    A student who declared wrongly as a Dalit commits suicide and leaders from all over the country fly there with the government money and raise the tempers in the pious area of education and unnecessarily blaming the innocents. Is it the democracy we want in this country.
    An innocent boy who secured 98% marks has to wait at the gate of the college and stare at a student who just passed the qualifying exam with minimum marks going fast on his bike with girl friend on the back to the college with government funds. Is it the democracy we want.
    How long one has to wait for justice. If anybody talks like this , it is treated as intolerance. If really Indians are intolerant there might have been a civil war in India. What more sacrifice these media and leaders wanted from the real suffers.
    I don't want this democracy any more at all. Let a dictator take over and call the spade as spade and put back the system on rails. Otherwise the majority people will become minority and again these political leaders will go for further division of the country.

    drrao
    always confident

  • #606203
    I don't agree with the point made in above in few threads that democracy is in danger zone in our country, although there are few incidents which could have been prevented but because of few such incidents we can't put whole system to be blamed. There are numerous country which are facing real crisis in handling democracy but India has been and still is going well in many things because of democracy we have.
    Its mere way of portraying things by news channel which sensitize every big and small issues . In the past also there were so many things which raised the religious sentiments of the people and such bans also but now many news channel are trying to portray leading party as a religious fanatic party .
    There have been so many incident of racist attacks in developed countries which we consider icons of democracy there have been many incidents of fanaticism but we still call them democracy but in India media plays very big role in making images of political parties whether they are fanatic, patriotic or democratic.
    But we as the citizen of this nation shouldn't fall for such things and consider only development which our country is getting through the policies of government - things like how many people are employed, how much per ca-pita income is right now in the country, with what rate our economy is growing.
    Can we allow incidents those happened in the JNU on the name of democracy? will it be also fault of government to condemn such activities at college campuses ?

    "It is hardest thing in the world to be good thinker without being a good self examiner"

  • #606237
    "I have learned in History books in school that Democracy allows the practice of all religion freely." –Which History book says this? Pakistan and Bangladesh are two democratic countries. Does democracy allow practising all religions freely in those countries? How can we say that secularism and democracy are synonymous?

    "In which democratic country has the government decided what should cook in one's kitchen? "-Can we cook dog meat in the USA?

    If religion is a restraining factor to sing National Anthem (earlier objection was limited to only National Song), then those religious people must shift towards west and sing a new national anthem, about which I have already mentioned in my previous response.

    Many people of the country are now fully convinced that pest-control should get top-most priority in our country.

    The response (#606189) is full of various fallacious arguments.

    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #606244
    I apologise for the incorrect usage of the word Democratic Country instead I should have written India is a secular Democratic country. I would like to quote the exact words from Wikipedia regarding secularism in India,

    Below words quoted from Wikipedia. Reference:
    Secularism

    "Secularism in India means equal treatment of all religions by the state.

    With the 42nd Amendment of the Constitution of India enacted in 1976,[1] the Preamble to the Constitution asserted that India is a secular nation. However, neither India's constitution nor its laws define the relationship between religion and state. The laws implicitly require the state and its institutions to recognise and accept all religions, enforce parliamentary laws instead of religious laws, and respect pluralism.[2][3] India does not have an official state religion."

    So the constitution has not yet been amended here in India, so as long as that is intact people should be respected for their religious views.

    As far as Pakistan and Bangladesh are concerned, they have made amendments to their constitution and they have an official religion which is not the case yet in India.

    Now coming to "Can we cook dog meat in the USA?" : Yes it is legal in some parts of USA

    Just because a person's religion pricks his religious conscience why should they go to the west when they are living in a secular country?

    Mr. Partha, I haven't brought any fallacious or baseless arguments but only those which are valid and factual.

  • #606259
    "Secularism in India means equal treatment of all religions by the state. Is it happening in India. In the name of minorities some religions are getting more attention than the remaining religions? Is it not going to hurt the feelings of majority religion people. In hyderabad for the sake of protecting a damaged and about to fall down arch, the road is closed for the buses and heavy vehicles from years together. Is it the meaning of secular? May be correct for our politicians. I don't know. A few meters from that arch there was small temple which was moved overnight for road widening. This is an example only. Many things like this will be happening around. So now the meaning of secularism is depress the majority and favour the minority. Really we are very tolerant.
    drrao
    always confident

  • #606265
    The word secularism' has been added to the Preamble of the Constitution of India by virtue of the 42nd Amendment in 1976. This provision was not in the original Constitution when Jawaharlal Nehru had been at the helm.

    The other changes made in the Constitution by 42nd Amendment were later reverted through 46th Amendment. Only the provision of 'Secularism' was not changed.

    In western countries, secularism means separation of state from religion. In India, secularism means appeasement of religious leaders of two specific communities. It means closing the eyes to the injustice meted out to the females of a particular community. All these are being done for the sake of vote bank politics. People of this country don't want appeasement of one or two particular community (-nities) in the name of secularism.

    More importantly, the nation is above any particular provision of Constitution. If it is proved that any provision contained in the Constitution is harming the nation, we have to amend that particular provision.

    Constitution of India is amenable.

    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #606288
    Is democracy is danger? Yes. Throughout the world. Democracy isn't an utopian dream now it's more like a curse. Let's take US and Germany. Neo-Nazis and communists are taking over. It makes sense according to them.
    And have you noticed, India is becoming a capitalist nation slowly. Looks like we are walking the footsteps of the USA.
    But why is democracy in danger? Because of the unholy elections. Because of the beaurocratic procedures. A single scheme or project passes through a thousand offices to get approval.
    Presence of multitude of parties is creating friction within the nation.
    Democracy is inherently flawed. That's the reason why it wasn't attempted on a full-scale in ancient or medieval world. Communism is making a comeback. Maybe that is what we need. And BJP seems to be pro-communism too. So, it's certain that democracy is in danger in India. Maybe we'll become a capitalist communist country. Ironic!

    The stronger a light shines the darker are the shadows around it.

  • #606289
    And for all those blaming democracy for the failures of government, here's my answer- democracy is by,for and of the people. If you want the change, be the change. It's our duty to unite together and revolt.
    If you're feeling sad for those MBBS students, go and revolt against concerned officials.
    Sounds impractical and improper,right?
    Is this situation going to change in absense of democracy? Never. It's the duty of citizens to take things in their hands. That's the true independence. No government or idea is perfect. Stop blaming democracy and start acting.

    The stronger a light shines the darker are the shadows around it.

  • #606290
    We, the members of the majority community, are responsible for destruction of democracy in our country.

    Yes, you read it right. In India, Hindus are 80% of the population. Even then, when people of any other community paints naked picture of Goddess Saraswati, some of the Hindus, in the name of liberalism, secularism and culture, defend such act. On the other hand, when a Hindu boy posts a picture which is objectionable to other community, some of the Hindus even instigate that community to resort to violence in the name of condemning such post.

    When slogan is raised in one of the top universities of the country: "Bharat tere tukre honge, Insha-Allah, Insha-Allah", some of the Hindus support this in the name of freedom of expression. On the other hand, when some Indians talk about brutal repression of people of Baluchistan, some so-called liberal Hindus criticise the habit of poking nose in other country's internal affair.

    When beef festival is organised to mock the practice of Hinduism, some Hindus support it in the name of freedom of eating. When pork festival is planned by some Hindus, criticism from so-called liberal Hindus complaining instigating violence by the organizers of such pork festival, can be heard everywhere.

    Hindu political leaders want other community to vote en block in favour of their own party, but try their level best to divide Hindus on the basis of caste. And we Hindus vote those political leaders to bring them to power.

    So, till such time people of majority community leave this hypocrisy and change their attitude, democracy will continue to remain in danger in India.

    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #606294
    It is true. Some of the Hindu leaders only, because of their hunger for power, they are trying to divide them in the name of caste. They support minorities for their vote bank. If the majority community come together and change their attitude, there is no looking back for them. Otherwise the politicians will be making the democracy a tool for their operations.
    drrao
    always confident

  • #606302
    So are we to blame our-self or the government or the Indian Constitution?

    Indian constitution is one of the best constitutions in the world, but if people will start to meddle with it for wrong reasons with the power they have it is going the layman a lot. There are many things happening around which is questionable. Today you might support the decisions because they have not yet encroached in your area of interest.

    Having a dictator leader is not a solution for a very vast country like ours. We need a leader who is not biased against any religion/community/caste/state.

  • #606312
    As a student who had to study the Constitution of India in depth and who had to do comparative analysis of Indian Constitution with the Constitutions of several other countries, I do know that Indian Constitution is unnecessarily complex and has many grey areas. That is the precise reason of more than 100 Amendments of the Constitution of India (exactly 101 as on date) within a very short period of 67 years. Even the greatest Constitutional expert of the country, Late Durga Das Basu (whose books have to be studied by all students at every level) termed it as the "haven of lawyers".

    Let's learn to think. Let's call a spade a spade.

    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #606322
    Since you have studied the constitution we respect and appreciate your knowledge, Mr. Partha. You would be the right person to speak or comment on the constitutional rights.

    We being layman, we don't know much in detail about the constitution except for what we hear in news and read it from the newspaper. I did read that our Constitution is known as the best because in 67 years only 99 amendments were made compared to other countries. I got to learn from you that there have been 101 amendments, thanks to you.

    So as per your study, what are the amendments that you are suggesting which should be made? If possible can you list few grey areas in our Constitution? It would really help us to grow in knowing our constitution from a knowledgeable person like you.

  • #606331
    1. "…….we respect and appreciate your knowledge"-Who are 'we'? No other person in ISC has so far respected or appreciated my 'knowledge' of the Constitution.

    2. This particular thread has been raised to criticize the present Central Government and the present Prime Minister; so, the discussion on the Constitution of India will be little bit out of place. Even then I am humbly submitting some of the facts relating to the Constitution of India:-
    (a) The Drafting Committee of the Constitution under Ambedkar (yes, Ambedkar didn't write/develop the Constitution, he was only the Chairman of the Drafting Committee) did a very poor 'copy-pasting' job. Even the Preamble, which is considered the soul of the Constitution, was copied from the Constitution of Sweden. Even the copied Preamble was amended later.
    (b) Some of the grey areas of Indian Constitution are:-
    (i) The principle of re-organisation of states: Even today the political leaders are going on bifurcating the states and making smaller states to create new vote banks.
    (ii) The principle of reservation: This has been widely debated. The politicians are continuing this obsolete and unscientific policy even after 15 years of the Constitution coming to force.
    (iii) The language policy: What is the language policy of India? Is it tr-language formula or bi-language formula? What is the 'National Language' of the country?

    3. 101 Amendments of the Constitution within 67 years is not a matter of pride-rather it is a matter of ridicule. Please check how many time the Constitution of the USA (most probably the oldest existing Constituion which is still in force) has been amended during last 228 years (it came into force in 1789)?

    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #606335
    It would be selfish of me to say that "I respect and appreciate your knowledge" hence I said "we respect and appreciate your knowledge" and I am confident that everyone respects the knowledge that you have.

    I just went through the article that the Constitution of USA was amended only 33 times that is very commendable. So the rounds going on that India has the best constitution is not true or Is it? I might be going out of the discussion but just curious to know as at least I was under this assumption that our country has one of the best constitutions.

    Back to the main discussion of this forum,

    I do feel that my right to many things is threatened, I am assured that my life was a lot easier prior to this government. I didn't feel threatened nor did I feel that some dictator is encroaching my personal choice. This is not what democracy feels like.

    This is my personal opinion.

  • #606337
    I totally agree with Partha. You have done a great job man by putting forward so many strong points against this thread. I agree with your statement that some secular and liberals are the main reason for this situation of our country. They only need small reason to blame the central government.
    Neethu you mentioned in your response the statement made by Ashok Singhal that he told to make India a Hindu nation by 2020. How you forget the statements given by Owaisi that Muslims will clean this India by killing all the Hindus if they will be no police force for 15 minutes. How you forget the statements of separatist that they made daily of breaking the country in to two pieces. How you forget the statement of Abdullah that no Hindu can go to Amarnath if government will remove 35A. How you forget to mention the Fatwas issued by Maulana and Maulavis against various cricketers and leaders.
    You are supporting them by saying that they should not be forced to sing national anthem because it kick their religion in danger zone. What can be more ridiculous than this? Can you explain how national anthem threaten their religion? Muslims of China are not allowed to have beard and women are not allowed to wear burkha. They also sing national anthem but there their religion is safe but in India where government is providing so many facilities, their religion is under threat. This is the same country where every Hindu love and respect Kalaam. This is the same country where Hindus are trying to solve the issue of Ram Mandir through judiciary. Yet, some intellectuals and secular blame them to be intolerant. Few months back, a news paper published HIndu Terrorism over the issue of cow saver in bold letters on its first page. Yet, know one protested against it.
    We all know that every terrorists who has been killed and arrested in the last 5 year is a Muslim yet we never termed terrorism as Islamic Terrorism although they are doing so openly and ISIS is a very good example of this. Secular and liberals claim that not all Muslims are alike. Not every snake is poisonous but it does mean that we allow non poisonous snake to enter in our home, we kill them too.
    Bengal government is openly taking anti Hindu steps for the sake of vote banks. They have issued Asdhar Card to more than 2 crores of Bangladeshi who were illegally living in Bengal for their vote banks. Hindus are living like secondary citizen in Kerala and Bengal. It's been enough now. Yet, some feel that this country is not safe for Muslims.

  • #606342
    With all due respect to every member who has posted in this forum, it's only human to have a difference in opinions while I do respect your opinions and thoughts I will explain few things.

    Anyone who says that a particular religion should be wiped out be it Ashok Singhal, Owaisi or whosoever, I don't support any of it. Now, why do I justify people who do not want to sing National Anthem because it hurts their religious sentiments here is the reason. There are few words in the national anthem which proclaim the supremity. As per their Holy Books, they are not supposed to proclaim supremity to anyone other than their God. It is a sin for them, so you see it is justified. They do respect the country, they do honor the national anthem and the country by standing up.

    Now coming to Cow issue, many people have been killed in the name of this issue. The law punishes a rapist for 7 years but the penalty for transporting the beef could be an imprisonment of lifetime or 10years. Many have protested against this issue, many have been killed also in this process. So when you say no one has protested or raised their voice its not true.

    I do agree that politicians can go to any extent to get the vote bank.

    I will disagree with the fact that Hindus are living like a secondary citizen in Kerala, that's a baseless argument. I cannot speak on Bengal though.

    It is not about a particular sect of our country which is feeling unsafe, it's about living in harmony irrespective of your religion or caste and respecting each one's religion and not enforcing something just because the majority are following it.

  • #606343
    I have just now noted that an Editor has encouraged this 'debatable' thread with enhanced point and cash credit. Perhaps the Editor wants some more viewpoints to be discussed here. But very unfortunately, so far, no other member (except the originator of the thread) has put forward any other view-point. This is really very unfortunate. I am eagerly waiting for some more tirades.

    As this thread is increasingly becoming one-against-three session, I am waiting for some more knowledgeable responses.

    Thereafter I would respond in detail.

    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #606367
    Duplicate.
    The stronger a light shines the darker are the shadows around it.

  • #606371
    If their religious sentiments are hurt by national anthem then why they did not raise this issue in the last 67 years. India is a secular country and hence we have to respect every religion. So, if any word in national anthem hurt and threats any religion then that word should be excluded and some changes should be made to make it suitable for everyone.
    And yes, I am very eager to know those words that hurt their religious sentiments and how do they do so? If you can justify it with some solid reason and points then answer otherwise please don't argue with bullshit facts.

  • #606377

    The very first example and proof that democracy is functioning and active in our country is this discussion itself.
    In many countries, by this time the author and participants would have been inside cells and the publication would have been shut.

    So I start discussing this thread by first thanking that I am blessed and privileged to be in this country and enjoying the free air of democracy. Let us all retell ourselves that we will guard the freedom,territory and unity of our motherland by being patriotic and active participants of its democratic governance system.

    Whatever incidents mentioned in the tread are not the fault of democracy. Some of them are accidents or happenings due to non-compliance of systems and guidelines or individual faults or misinterpretations by individuals ,groups or media themselves. Some of them are mere precautions taken to prevent damage to people's peaceful life and prevent. A prudent governing system has to take precautions to prevent further problems. Sometimes even certain freedoms may be restricted temporarily for common good. However all such actions are subject to review and analysis in a democracy. That is what we are doing now.

    Thank God and our system, it is only because we have freedom of expression and speech that we come to know such things. We have a vibrant and free media, communication set up,- symbols of functioning democracy.

    Democracy can be in danger if individuals and groups flout laws, join inimical interests and try to torpedo national interests, divulge nation's ital secrets etc. Participation and eternal vigilance is the need of the hour. As the participation in election in elections has been increasing, it shows people have more faith in democracy now. What is required is for people to join and contribute to the nation's progress actively .Let us not fall victims to false propaganda by vested interests. Our system has many avenues to get our problems redressed. System is still good. There are some aberrations here and there. As true citizen it is our duty also to correct the aberrations.

  • #606442
    #606377: Thank you, Sir, for your reply, really appreciate the way you have written it and totally agree with you.

    #606371: Just a small suggestion I do hope that you will take it positively and in the right sense, certain words that you have used in this response #606371 is not acceptable.

    Maybe you were not aware that we do have certain sect or cult in our country who refuse to sing the national anthem and case was filed by them a few decades back for suspending them from school. This is the verdict that the high court gave them, as long as they are respecting the song you cannot condemn them for not singing as it hurts their religious conscience following which they were readmitted in the school. I think we should totally respect that. I have already explained the reason and the word which hurts their religious sentiments.

    I am not being anti-government, there are certain issues going on for which I raised a concern and I gave a thought to the things happening around me and sought your opinion in it.

    Sincere apologies, to anyone who is offended, no offense meant intentionally.

  • #606448
    Though I am not be so intelligent like many member here but I do not understand one thing. How a national anthem can be objectionable to anyone? It is obviously not a personal praising or any party political song but "country", our own country where we born. The feeling of a nation itself bring so much great feeling then why singing the national anthem? When the national Anthem was introduced as a "national anthem" by then Congress Government, why there were no protest? I feel, if few words are objectionable, the particular religion should have brought out in the notice of then congress government. The question is why now it is objectionable?

  • #606450
    Mr. Jeets: In today's India, National Anthem and National Song of India are objectionable to the members of 'secu-libu' brigade. That is why, I earlier suggested that the members should shift west-wards and sing a beautiful song as their national anthem: "Pak Sar Jamin Saad Baad".
    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #606451
    Thanks Partha, but I am sorry to say, suddenly people thinking gets changes. Why there are two mentality as if India were growing "Gold" during congress rules? And now since BJP who has a "hindu" tag become useless government?
    Also, how a particular religion who just after post independence having no problem with "National Anthem" is having problem now? It would have better they had protested during congress rules (a secular party) during independence era, instead of objecting now.

  • #606456
    Actually, people did raise their concern in the past, it has come to notice in major scale now.

    Why didn't they protest? - I am not sure but I assume that they are content respecting it rather than forcefully singing.

  • #606465
    So funny they are content respecting it. Those people who can protest for even a needle if it will hurt their religious sentiments are content over this major issue.
    I have been always taught since childhood that no religion or belief can be greater than the country. We can disrespect our religion but we should never disrespect our country. If not singing the national anthem is not anti national activity then what is?

  • #606467
    If I am not wrong, making national flag had a big objection and issue between religion group during independence era and after so many changes the now tri-colour selected with the agreement of all religion people, I am surprise why the same kind of protest or objections could not be done during those days. The congress was ruler and it would not have been any problem to change in few lines. Specially this kind of issue should not be talked without talking from the past and it will be better if people stops accusing BJP for each and every issue. More than anything we need to broad our mind, everything will look alright.

  • #606468
    Members are requested to get back to the main point of discussion instead of harping on connected issues only.
    'Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance'- Confucius

  • #606470
    Why Mr. Saji Ganesh ? We are in discussion only what we talked wrong can you please explain?

  • #606483
    Mr. Gaurav: "I have been always taught since childhood that no religion or belief can be greater than the country." You have learnt this because you are a follower of a great religion of the world. Not every religion (including atheism and communism) teaches this.
    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #606489
    Singing national anthem should come from the heart and not by enforcing or condemning them for not singing also not by telling them to go to west and sing. It's not the people who are not singing is creating the issue but it is with people who are against those who cannot sing, they are creating a havoc. Aren't you encroaching their choice? They are not becoming anti-nationals by not singing.

    People who cannot sing due to religious sentiments, this country belongs to them as much as to those who sing. If those people are disrespecting and stopping any other person from singing then that's a serious issue.

    You become anti-national when you betray the nation. It's your action that defines your patriotism not your words.

    "Action speaks more than words"

    No-one spoke about the infants that died in the hospital, who died due to lack of oxygen. The government failed to pay the amount which caused the life of innocent infants. The authorities have washed their hands of the issue.

    It is not at all about a religious tag, it is about the freedom that I had yesterday but not today. Tomorrow if another leader comes and enforces his choice on me I would certainly not like it.

    People have revolted even during Congress time, so you cannot expect people to be quiet when BJP is ruling if something offending is happening.

  • #606499
    U.P government is investigating the case. There had been some issue of payment with the hospital administration. So, its not right to blame the government for this incident. The government appoint employees to work for them and if that employee failed to discharge his duty properly then instead of supporting government to help them find the culprits, people are accusing him like Yogi himself stopped the supply of oxygen.
    Where the thought of people is heading to? It's not been for the first time that children died in that hospital, every year hundred of them die in the same hospital. Even after the incident took place, ten more children died next day only. At that time there was enough availability of oxygen, doctors and other staffs.
    How intolerant people have become that they are feeling impending threat to democracy over a small issue.
    They do not feel any threat to democracy when stonepelters attack army daily n daily. They do not feel any threat to democracy when today Jakir Musa threatened to establish Islamic rule in Kashmir. They do not feel threat to democracy when naxalits and terrorists kill our soldiers. There was no threat to democracy when 26/11 incident took place.
    They were no feeling threat to democracy when a calf was killed openly before camera on the street of Kerala. Their sentiments is sentiments and our sentiments are hypocracy and blind faith. They did not kill only a cow but they killed the sentiments of 80 crores HIndu yet we were tolerant.
    And now those people are teaching us the definition of tolerance and intolerance and they are feeling impending threat to democracy of this country.

  • #606501
    I was the Administrative Officer of a top Government Medical College of New Delhi from 2002 to 2008. Every year during monsoon, the Head of the Department of Pediatrics of the Medical College had to lead a high-level medical team to Gorakhpur to manage treatment of children from Japanese Encephalitis which caused death of children in large numbers (every year). No newspaper or periodical did bother to take up the issue of large number of death of children at Gorakhpur.

    Similarly, three-four years ago, there was large number of death of children at Malda Medical College of West Bengal. Even then, the media didn't bother to take up the issue of so many death of children.

    Now, the previous Government in Uttar Pradesh kept the bill pending for three years or more at Gorakhpur Medical College. Sixty-three unfortunate children had to pay with their lives for these pending bills. The present Government of Uttar Pradesh (Yogi Adityanath as Chief Minister and Siddharth Nath Singh as Health Minister) are taking necessary action. Prime Minister is himself monitoring the situation. This is no doubt a very unfortunate incident. But that doesn't mean that one can''t even mention the actual reason, i.e., the pending bill by the previous Government.

    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #606537
    #606456 - "Actually, people did raise their concern in the past, it has come to notice in major scale now".
    The above statement means that those people who were involved in adopting it as national anthem in 1950 were not knowledgeable people. Now, the people have become more knowledgeable so, they are opposing it. If it so, it is obvious that it is not the objectionable word but something else. It just means that few anti-national people are trying to bring differences between people.

    I have posted this thread in 2012 look at the response #342972 a member words. Not only he but there are many people like well known writer Javed Akhtar statements says that there is no problem in national anthem. However, as per the author, the respect for the nation comes from one's within heart, one can not force it others.

  • #606538
    Read the preevious Forum post of Mr. Jeets. It is fully relevant in the present context. Thanks to Mr. Jeets for this previous reference.

    But shrewd (sorry, intelligent) people find many excuses for their indefensible acts (like not singing National Anthem).

    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #606575
    Once upon a time, there was a ruler, he was a very educated man. He was a man with so much caliber and a very wise man too. He spoke very less but he was a man of action. He even saved his nation from great financial crisis. He was a very humble and down to earth person. His subjects mistook this behavior of his as a silent ruler who didn't do much. His achievements were never celebrated or bombarded in the news channel.

    But as his tenure was about to come to an end, many allegations came up. People forgot about everything that he did for his people. His failures are what got highlighted the most. Then came another ruler who was always in the limelight. Everything focused and exaggerated in the media. People justified everything that was done by him. In fact, things that continued from ages became a national issue and majority blamed them for being anti-national. Few people wanted them to leave the country as well. According to them, things which happened during the previous rule was totally unjustifiable but things happening now was justifiable.

    The Ruler is never to be blamed!!

    This is a small story and I hope this explains everything that I want to convey.

  • #606579
    An honest king who is unable to control his corrupt ministers is not fit to be a king. A titular king who is controlled by a sultana and a shahzada is not a sovereign king.
    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #606585
    These same corrupted ministers are now being accepted into the new ruler's kingdom. If they were corrupted ministers and if the new ruler wants to keep his system clean then I think he should not accept these minister into his kingdom. But unfortunately, he has let them in.

  • #606586
    I thought that the present discussion (which was just initiated) is about the past 'king' and the present 'king'. Now, the discussion has suddenly shifted to the ministers. So be it. Now let us talk about the ministers.

    A minister under the previous 'king' who was famous (infamous?) for 2-G scam, has not joined the present ruler. Same holds true about the famous ministers behind coalgate scam, commonwealth games scam and numerous other scams. As far as I know, only one minister of the previous 'king' has been made minister by the present ruler, but during these years, this minister has been kept in tight leash.

    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #606592
    There was a king who was very silent. He acted like he is very honest and humble. But the fact was that he was only a puppet in the hand of someone. He could even speak a word by himself. His ministers were living the real life. Under his reign 2G auction took place which connected every part of this country through telecommunication. Under his rule Common Wealth games were organised which again made our country proud. Under his rule Coal Block Auction took place which created another history. Under his rule August revolution led by Anna Hazare took place to expose the great deeds of the silent ruler as he did not spoke much.

  • #606597
    I had never thought that we can be such a fool to raise question on such a gentle and holy man. Oh god! please forgive me. Please forgive me for raising question on that poor guy.
    How can I accuse such a gentle men who saved our country from financial problem. It's another fact that he was one of the accused in coal block scam of 2.5 lakh crore. But it was his reward for saving our country. He deserved this price. We offered him this reward because even the richest man of this country has a total property of 1.6 lakh crore. So, we offered him the biggest award in the history.
    His minister connected us through telecommunication and so we awarded him with 14000 crores. One of the minister make the name of our country in the whole world by organizing Common Wealth games and he took away his reward of 76000 crore.
    How can we so cruel to call him a corrupt. They just took away what they deserved. It's our fault. Oh god! please offer us wit.

    The main culprit is this new ruler who does not even take his full payment. He is trying to take away those reward from them. How can he do so? He has created an impending threat to this country because he has ordered army to kill terrorists, he is suppressing anti nationalist. How can he do these things to those people who took our country to this stage from the last 70 years. This new ruler is working 16 hours a day, why he is not taking rest and relaxing like the previous ruler. This man is really annoying me. I am not habituated of seeing an honest man. I am not habituated of a ruler who does not respect those great corrupt person with rewards. This man is taking strict action against them. Those poor guy are fighting for their existence.
    We are not used to his new practice. These corrupt person have been part of our system since Independence, how can this man put a ban on all those activities. This man is really creating an impending threat to the democracy of this country. I once again pray you please forgive me for raising question on those great saints. I did not deserve even hell.

  • #606602
    God has forgiven you!

  • #606625
    I actually had a good laugh after reading #60659722, all I could respond yesterday in the cab was God has forgiven you. What a level of sarcasm, truly appreciate it!

    Let me not go to the sarcasm but will surely list very few points.

    1. The previous ruler had the lowest salary being the Prime Minister of India. (according to the WALL Street Journal)
    2. In his regime the GDP growth was stable (Read it in economics times)
    3. Nirmal Bharat Abhiyan was the vision of UPA and they did quite well, they didn't advertise much. Current ruler changed it to Swach Bharat and now people think it was started by the current ruler. (snatching of idea)
    4. Not a single polio was reported since 2011.
    5. One of the greatest nuclear deal was done between Manmohan Singh and Bush.
    6. GST was first proposed by the regime of the previous ruler but strongly opposed by the opposition that time. But now implemented with great glory (Hypocrisy)
    7. The surgical strike was done earlier as well, terrorist were shot even during their regime. It's not new, it's not that these things were happening only after the current ruler came. (Misconception)
    8. It's a wrong notion that the current ruler is free of corruption. Even he has many corrupted officers. At least the last ruler didn't create any riots.
    9. I wonder how the note ban has curbed the corruption or the black money. As far as I have read and understood, it has not helped in any way. Black money has only increased. Didn't hear of any big fish caught.
    10. Banning certain food - how is it working in the nation's interest. Still wondering!
    11. Surprisingly the tag "anti-national" has increased in the current rule, what happened in the previous rule. Were they not anti-national that time? How did they become anti-national suddenly?

    The Media picturized the last ruler as a puppet but no, he was one of the best and sensible educated Prime Minister of India. He never spoke politically, he always spoke sensibly with words of wisdom. Please check his interviews.

    I once had a Prime Minister and a President that I was very proud of. No one can beat that, it was wonderful to have Dr. Manmohan Singh and APJ Abdul Kalam together.

  • #606629
    Now the main intention of posting this thread by author is clear. I have no comments on anyone's personal choices, India is a free country and everyone have right to express their feeling about liking or disliking. The name of the of respected Abdul Kalam is undoubtedly is the best president we have. However, as far as Manmohan Singh vs Modi is concern, Mr. Modi has majority of Indians vote that's what made him the PM of India. I am proud to say that after Indira Gandhi, Mr. Modi is the most strongest PM of India. It is not me but the majority of the people all over the world says. However, I would like to mention here that a country runs with not personal choices but majority of people's choice.

  • #606632
    #606625: All the eleven points mentioned in the response can be debated and contested. However, I am only taking Point Nos. 7, 8,9, 11.
    Point No. 7: "7. The surgical strike was done earlier as well, terrorist were shot even during their regime. It's not new,"- Most probably the author is trying to mention Operation Ginger. Earlier I was asked not to go into the details of the said Operation. So, I would only state that Operation Ginger was a Divisional-level operation. It was not a surgical strike.
    Point No. 8: "At least the last ruler didn't create any riots."-We are forgetting Muzaffarnagar riot! Are we forgetting the riots in West Bengal and Karnataka?
    Point No. 9: "I wonder how the note ban has curbed the corruption or the black money. As far as I have read and understood, it has not helped in any way. Black money has only increased. Didn't hear of any big fish caught. "-Only one example would be suffice. What about the raid and unearthing of huge cash from the brother of Ms. Mayawati?
    Point No. 11: "Surprisingly the tag "anti-national" has increased in the current rule, what happened in the previous rule. Were they not anti-national that time? How did they become anti-national suddenly?"-Nobody has suddenly become anti-national. Only those who have been indulging in anti-national activities are being called anti-nationals. People aree calling a spade a spade. The anti-nationals are no longer being directly or indirectly encouraged.

    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #606653

    Friends
    I am at the vague end of discussion. The debate has almost covered entire gamut of Indian politics. Well first I noted there were dispute over terms. Let us deal with it first.
    Democracy. It is a way of life where everyone respects each other rights. Demo meaning people and cracy meaning rule. It literally translates to rule by people. Democratic government can be possible only if people have rights. Thus Democracy became synony with rights given to people for effectively ruling themselves. But mere rights leads to chaos and hence certain restrictions were placed. These rights and restrictions were constitutional and hence Supreme Court decides the nature of these words.

    Secularism. India has its own detention of secularism which is very different from anywhere. In west religion is seperated from state. But in India we give equal respect and protection to all religions. For eg. In India government maintains many temples and mosques. Indian government enters into religious domain by claiming certain practises as discriminatory. This is not possible in west.

    Socialism
    This is also a hotly debated concept. While India calls herself a socialistic country liberalisation has been taking place since 1991 at a more rapid pace. This issue was settled with SC ruling in 1996 where government was considered to be socialistic even if it pursues liberalistic policies if the goals of such policies were to reduce the gap between poor and rich.

    Equality.
    Again here we differ from western notion of equality by birth and equity in oppurtunity. In India it is positive eqaulity which means uplifting the downtrodden to enable them to participate equally as a community.

    Thus we differ in each and every constitutional philosophy from west.
    Now the above definitions are still hotly contested in India.

    Going through the responses of various friends there seems to be a hot debate on BJP vs congress rule. Before getting into it first I completely endorse the view that democracy is under stress( not threat) in India. The stress is because "Post truth" is dominating Indian public debates presently. This situation in history has sometimes led to revolution. The point is people have started questioning the established facts. Here the point is people are not disputing the facts. But they are disputing the explanation given by accepted norms. For eg. Let us take the phrase "Stone throwing happens in Kashmir". This fact is not disputed by anyone. But why stone throwing. The established explaination is seperatistis are fuelling kashmir youths against Indian state. Now people are questioning this explaination. They say why not we assume they are protesting armed forces suppression. Now this debate is surely important. But in the process they hurl abuses against the other side of debate which becomes a problem and sometimes truth gets distorted. Here we can say democracy is under stress and not threatened because here no rights of people is affected but their voices are sometimes affecting the very debate itself. There is no one to blame for it. As a society this just reflects a transition and people are getting to new realities.
    Now coming to responses people have diverted too far from the issue of democracy. Exactly this is what I meant by post truth. Some responses have started a BJP vs Congress debate which is far stretched to the debate of demcocracy. The real question is in what way rights of people are affected? Are people making meaningful choices in education, politics , science etc.. These are some questions which need debate.
    By this I am not arguing that governance of under two different regimes is not relevant but the core issue got distorted.

    Now coming to governance people must understand that congress and BJP are fighting for two different ideals with same policies. Congress main core objective is to protect Indian legacy. BJP's core ideal is to protect the culture they believe in. These two contrasting ideals but policies are similar. Congress may want to stick to socialism while BJP might not be that much interested in it. For eg let us take a scheme is congress MGNREGA, now clearly this is a scheme where taxes are given to the people having jobless in rural areas. A kind of resource redistribution where money is given to people which they use to increase demand and thereby prices of goods go up increasing the profit of companies and the economy runs. But bjp gives Jan dhan Yojana where people are expected to open bank accounts, park their money in banks, Banks in turn fund investment to companies and economy runes. Here true issue is not which one is right but the difference between the two and understanding why BJP and Congress are following different policies. This is because of their difference in understanding of people. While congress believes unemployment can be reduced by Governemmt. But BJP believes unemployment can be solved by increasing investment of companies which will in turn give employment.
    I hope I have done some justice to the thread and have made my points clear.
    Finally I comgratuLate the author for raising a very lively and relevant debate.

  • #606662
    I would like to deal with the first six points by the author. The last points have been already dealt in best possible way.

    1. The last ruler had the lowest salary, Wall street journal. Our country has a constitution and salary and other perks are provided according to what has been already fixed and decided by the parliament. How can be it possible that last ruler could be getting even less salary than the first ruler.
    2. GDP was stable. Only those faces failures and ups and down who try some thing new. Those who have no guts to take risk remain always at the same stage. There have been some variations but still it is better than the last ruler because price hike is also under control.
    3. I never heard of that scheme. But every single child of this country know about Swachh Bharat Abhiyan and understand what it is all about. I totally agree with you that there would be some scheme like that which had not been advertised. There would be some big budget for that too and I am now 100 % sure one more minister took away his reward. Thank you mam for pointing out this scheme. You deserve a big applause.
    4. Congratulation. They did something to feel proud about.
    5.First started by Atal Bihari Vajpayee who received an overwhelming response from public, congress had no option except signing off the treaty.
    6. GST was proposed by Congress but there had been some conflict over some issues and not only opposition but 13 other chief ministers excluding north east state opposed that bill. But now this new ruler made some changes and then passed it.

  • #606663
    I remember a quote of the grand father of Chanakya

    If a dog cries then be assured that you have hit the right spot.
    I hope those who have some mind will understand it.

  • #606666
    #606653: He has replied perfectly very much relevant and apt to this thread. I believe no further explanation is required now from my end.

    #606662: Please go through the response in this thread of #606653.

  • #606695
    This thread has many more issues which are required to be discussed in detail, but as the points credit would not be commensurate to the effort, let me summarise from my side:-

    According to the originator of this thread, the democracy in India is under very grave threat. So, people should change the Government so that freedom in respect of following activities can ensure 'strengthening of democracy'.
    (a) Freedom to chant 'Bharat tere tukre honge, Insha-Allah'.
    (b) Freedom to play 'holi' in social sciences department of universities when Indian soldiers would be martyred.
    (c) Freedom to study 'true' history which will teach us that the culture of foreign invaders was superior to our own culture.
    (d) Freedom to put honest, patriotic citizens behind the bar for nine years or so in false cases to prove that the Hindus can also be terrorists.
    (e) Freedom to commit scams involving astronomical amount to prove to the world that India is no longer a poor country.
    (f) Freedom of love jihad with additional incentive of selling women in Yemen or Syria in the name of freedom of choice.
    (g) Freedom of opening the border with the purpose of altering the demographic composition of the country.
    (h) Various other freedom of choices like denying the basic human rights to the women of a particular community.

    But the moot point is, does the majority of the country want this type of democracy? Yes or No.

    Caution: Explosive. Handle with care.

  • #606696
    The above response is a total misinterpretation of what's been conveyed. I never endorsed to any of the points said above.

  • #606736
    Partha, astonishing to see your details, I would not like to comment about this thread or author but certainly no one wants such democracy. The majority of people in India wanted a change and that is why the Government has been changed. However, I would like to mention one more point here that if Congress has lost his supremacy, it is just because of their weak policies. People must note this that congress is not that congress which was ruled by Indira ji. After her there is no one had such power or attraction to rule this country.


  • Sign In to post your comments