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  • Category: Group Discussions

    Active GD- Atrocities against women/ children can be reduced if the victims speak out- Do you agree?

    It is with immense pleasure and high expectations that we are announcing another Active GD on the topic Atrocities against women/ children can be reduced if the victims speak out-Do you agree?

    Women and children, and even men, have always been subjected to various forms of atrocities. With the passage of time, technological advances and awareness campaigns, such crimes have started attracting public attention and we are now almost equipped to fight this social evil. We are mostly aware of the legal position involved but there has been a general opinion among the law enforcing forces and the legal fraternity that such crimes can be contained to a great extent if the victims start speaking out about the attacks against them. Let me make it clear that when speaking of atrocities, it is not about the sexual offences alone that we are concerned about. The term should be read in its wider perspective to include any kind of physical or mental violence of any kind, at any place, including one's home. Though we are witnessing some positive changes, such crimes lie hidden most of the time due to many factors including social stigma.

    That being the context, let us discuss this social concern seriously, all the while keeping in mind the social, psychological and legal aspects involved. It would be okay to touch upon related issues or solutions or even to refer to relevant cases but please do not deviate from the main topic for discussion- can atrocities against women and children be reduced or stopped if the victims start speaking out; will it act as a deterrent?

    Questions like how, why, to what extent etc may have to be answered and debated upon. Ensure that you don't limit your argument to one or two points but think about the topic as a whole and come out with what you feel.

    Let us have a practical, thoughtful and fair discussion with the present situation in mind.

    General guidelines for adherence -

    *Please do not post responses that are not relevant to the GD in this thread.

    *Read and understand the topic properly before coming up with arguments.

    *Please stick to the topic. Do not deviate from the main subject. It is quite natural to draw connections or make references but one must make it a point to get back to the topic of discussion. Any deviation from the main topic that is likely to affect the flow of a discussion is not advisable. Take a stand and fight for it and avoid trying to maintain a balance.

    *Do try to add on or elaborate on points already submitted instead of harping on the same point in different words time and again. It would be better if you distribute your arguments between the responses you intend to post instead of covering up all of them in one go. Please give detailed responses with valid points to support your argument.

    *Do not get personal. Each participant in a debate is free to choose his stand and though one can and has to challenge and try to disprove another's point, it should be limited to the views only and not on a personal level. Let us not discard dignity and decency for the sake of cementing a view.

    Let us have a healthy, active and fruitful discussion. The GD will close on 25th Nov '17.

    Best participants will be selected depending on the number of participants and will be awarded suitably. Other participants will also be considered for cash rewards if found eligible.

    So why wait? Read carefully, think properly and start penning down your points and arguments. Let the activity begin!

    Note: The editor who is moderating the GD will have the final say (in consultation with the team) in matters of dispute (during discussion) and a point or guidance put forth as a response by the moderator need not be responded to by the participating members.
  • #616534
    I fear when a victim has gone through the trauma of atrocities would sulk in their life as they have been defamed and disrespected by the people in the society. In that situation no one would be interested to speak and share their worst experience of the life. It is good if the victim comes out openly and describe the atrocity done but again the persons who stoop to the level of such worst acts have the blessings of bad supporters in the society and some times the law is also giving them long hand to escape for that moment. So even when the victims speak out, the justice wont be forthcoming as the powers may be behind the atrocity committing persons shall dilute the matter.
    K Mohan
    'Idhuvum Kadandhu Pogum "
    Even this challenging situation would ease

  • #616537
    I will agree with the statement, but the question is "will the victim be in such a state of mind that they could speak up the whole problem or harassment being done to them?" I assume not at all. Any kind of harassment or any sort of atrocity happening to either men, women or children, makes the person unthinkable and sometimes not even able to speak up anything, it will be difficult for them to narrate the whole scene. A lot of motivation and support is needed to help the victim to speak up about the problems they have faced.
    Except this, the bitter truth is the cases being filed in the court for atrocities are left useless after sometimes just as a paper record.

    Do what inspires you !!

  • #616539
    I don't see much scope for a discussion here. Victims standing up against their tormentors is the ultimate form of rebellion.
    But it takes immense courage, effort and expenses to do that. Indian law is with the woman. But to implement a punishment by running a trial , the court takes years off the victim's life. In the end the accused face a nominal punishment or get exonerated.
    It also depends on the financial status. One cannot see the case to the end without financial aid.
    So what can be done? Victim must raise a fundraising campaign of sorts. This will help her gain financial aid and sympathy of other women. With people's support backed up by her story, she'll have a greater chance of succeeding in avenging herself.

    The stronger a light shines the darker are the shadows around it.

  • #616540
    I want to point out that any man who resorts to physical or emotional abuse towards his wife or child is not normal. He has behavioural and physiological problems. These problems need proper counselling and mere arbitration from well-wishers rarely help. Women who are in an abusive relationship will tell you that the man is controlling and passive-aggressive. Abusive men have split personalities. These are serious physiological issues that can be treated only by a professional.

    So, speaking out, alone, cannot be effective, unless it is combined with proper therapy.

    In case, a woman is subjected to abuse, the people close to her often know of it. The other members living in the house (the in-laws and the children) a lot of time know of the abuse. The recent Emmy Award-winning drama 'Big Little Lies' showed how the physical abuse, even though it happened behind closed doors, was not hidden from the young boys of a couple. Please know that the neighbours know too, as the walls are thin and sounds carry. Friends and relatives know too, as there are visible signs of physical battering and emotional abuse too carries on unabated, in front of others.

    The man is not bothered about his reputation. He wouldn't indulge in the abuse in the first place if he were. Speaking out and letting others know of the abuse is not going to have any effect on the man. Yes, the woman can find a support system, but would that be enough? We need more than that. In our country, women are considered to belong to 'another family' once they are married and even parents do not want to take on the responsibility of a married daughter in an estranged relationship with her husband.

    I strongly feel that women should be financially independent, for generally, it is the lack of social security that makes women continue to bear the torture and insults.

    Yes, women should speak out, but if even that doesn't get her support, what is she to do? If she is financially independent she has the choice to walk out of a bad marriage. Men control women because they know they have nowhere to go.

    "A love affair with knowledge will never end in heartbreak." -Michael Garrett Marino

  • #616541
    I disagree fully. As long as our law enforcement authorities viz the police, the lawyers and judges are corrupt, no justice can be expected and the atrocities cannot be reduced. We all say that Truth will win finally. But it is a faulty phrase, and truth never wins, but always fails. More than the victims statement, the authority's false recording of the case after taking a bribe wins over the situation.
    No life without Sun

  • #616553
    Atrocities against women/ children can be reduced if the victims speak out- I will go with the statement. In fact, abusing or atrocities did against or ill-treating any individual whether it is the woman, children or man is against humanity. So the individual has to come out boldly and has to share the problem in public so that they will get the opportunity to fight against the issue with the help of the public support. If the individual remains to keep quiet she/he has to live in fear forever and the underlying problem never will be solved. The individuals who got injustice from the society if they remain quite also is not at all good for the society because such lawbreakers become more potent and violent to sweep away whatever humanity still remained in the society.

  • #616556
    The whole debate is flawed, in the sense that the victim is expected to provide a solution to a problem. The problem of physical and emotional abuse cannot go away by shifting the onus onto the victim.

    The right way to approach the problem is to address the root cause. In this case, the problem is the perpetrator - the husband. The problem is with him.

    It is sad, but in every equation where a woman is suffering the stress is given to her being the victim. The rape victim, the domestic violence victim, the dowry victim, the molestation victim and the sexual harassment victim etc. I hope you all see the pattern here. It is time to shift the focus from the victim to the wrongdoer. Make the offence the subject of debates, not the victim. Once this is done men will begin to be taught to behave.

    As of now, women are always taught to surrender - their freedom, their views, and their independence. They are trained from childhood to behave in a certain way – because they can be victims, like many others before them. Recognise the real grounds of why crimes against women happen and work at rectifying the problem areas. Suggesting that women speak up will not reduce the crime, for men will find other easy victims. The victim should not be liable to find ways to prevent or stop a crime from happening. The culprits should be the one under the scanner. We should be discussing them and how corrective measures should be taken to nip the problem in the bud.

    Aggression does not develop the instant a man gets married. The aggression exists in him. He turns abusive because he is not taught about respect. He oppresses because he thinks he is entitled to it. He dominates because he thinks the woman is weaker and probably financially dependent on him. This pattern has to be stopped if the violence against women has to be stopped. Stop asking women to come out with solutions. Treat the problem, sensitise the men, teach them respect when they are young. The violence will automatically reduce. The real problem is with the man. Recognise this fact.

    "A love affair with knowledge will never end in heartbreak." -Michael Garrett Marino

  • #616558
    I can't completely agree with the statement. Victims need to speak out but that alone will not reduce the cruelty towards them. Also, merely speaking out is not going to help.

    1. Channels and media will take it for few days just to add a masala news and get some viewers. I don't see sincerity behind it.

    2. The police whom the victim approach, can be easily bribed by the culprit. The case won't even reach the court, or even if it reaches, they will bribe the lawyers too. There are some officers who can't be bribed, they will be transferred from the job if they support the victim. Another thing is blackmailing the officers, in fear of danger to their loved ones, they will stand with the culprit.

    3. Our law has too many loopholes and we are surrounded by clever and cunning advocates who are capable of winning a case for money.

    These are the situations currently prevailing, then how is the victim speaking out going to help. Even if she speaks, can she explain in detail to the media and to the male officers? Media will repeatedly show such things and will actually kill the girl alive. Mercy is denied.

    "Do not give up, things might not favour you always"

  • #616563
    I agree that atrocities against victims whether children, women or even men can be reduced if they speak out but for that to happen we need to have a conducive environment where these victims can speak freely without the fear of society, stigma, left-alone and be traumatized as these people are often already haunted by atrocities against them and hence it becomes really hard for them to speak about harassment happening or happened with them in the past.
    For eg- a online platform #metoo did this although it is basically meant for victims of sexual assaults. This campaign( though controversial these days because of the list in it of the abusers) for them it provided them a platform where these people speak about the various kind of harassment happened with them. Many agreed to tell their stories on the condition of being anonymous. Shocking revelations were there even from the males also about their harassment and being haunted by those memories.
    This proves the fear of victims that they don't want to come forward completely with these matters because they have fear of social stigma even years after the atrocities that happened with them.
    So how can we expect a person going through these atrocities to come out openly and speak about it?
    The first and foremost requirement for us is to provide a conducive environment for such overt discussion of these topics even inside our families, homes, schools, and college and segregate these atrocities and harassment from the social stigma.
    As we can see various stories of victims of acid attacks, rapes, and domestic violence often viewed with different glasses in the society, even a normal divorce case is seen with a suspicious view within this type of environment how can we expect a victim to come out and speak against his/her abuser?
    If we really want to make the title of this thread to be true we need to have a society which is free from this stigma attached to the victim instead of the abuser. We need to throw out the glasses of suspicion with which we see these victims than only these debate can become meaningful.

    "It is hardest thing in the world to be good thinker without being a good self examiner"

  • #616565
    For women to be safe and to punish the culprit, she needs the help of family, friends, society, police, law and so on.

    1. Bribery and blackmailing should be stopped. Strict implementation of law is a must.

    2. Our officers and judge should be able to take strict action against the culprit, irrespective of the person on the other side.

    3. Medias should give respect to the girl and should not in any way post her pictures or telecast her statements.

    4. The public should stand with her and not treat her as untouchable.

    5. If she speaks out, she will have to face lot of tortures, family, law and public should stand beside her and protect her.

    6. In some cases, the family itself will hide such issues as they fear their public image will be tampered. Family should actually support the victim to speak out.

    7. The victim shoukd be given proper counseling, so that she recovers. Meanwhile no one should dare to insult her.

    8. Our girls should be taught some martial arts for self defense. They should be given the courage to fight or even kill someone who is showing cruelty towards them. The law should protect her in such cases.

    9. Our boys should be taught to respect girls. We should make them understand that their mom and sister too are women. So is every women and hence they need respect.

    10. The outlook of the society need to be changed. They can't just blame a girl for all these by saying it is because of the cloth she wore, or she was out at the wrong time. She also should be given the freedom to roam around and dress freely like the guys.

    Just because she is a girl, her parents can't be with her 24*7. Irrespective of her age, people are abusing her.

    I think rather than the victim speaking out, it is better the parents of such cruel males speak out the issues of their son and give him proper counselling or treatment at the right time. It really can reduce such issues.

    "Do not give up, things might not favour you always"

  • #616569
    From the previous responses I understand that the major limitations that keep a victim from speaking up is- unwanted publicity and corruption which wins over justice.
    But in this particular issue, media can be a very useful tool. The victim will not only be interviewed by different channels for going public but also will be called onto talk shows.
    What does this publicity bring? Support.
    She just made the whole world a witness of her suffering.
    Now the increasing support from media and public will propel the few actual witnesses who didn't dare to come out yet.
    With these evidences standing up with her, the case's momentum shifts drastically.
    As you say, supposing even the whole judiciary system of India is corrupt, the judge cannot rule out the fact that whole India or the world is looking forward for justice.
    So, judge will be inclined to do justice. If he doesn't, trial will be forced again, not by the victim but by the public demand.
    This has happened many times in past, where a trial occurs again due to public demand.
    "Ram mandir" case for an instance is brought to court again and again.

    The stronger a light shines the darker are the shadows around it.

  • #616575
    Expecting the victims of atrocities to stand up is NOT acceptable. In fact, it's worse than committing the atrocity. It'like leading a cow or a sacrificial lamb for the act and then asking it and the other lambs to stand up against slaughter. We can expect to stand up against the right to speak, right to truth, right for equality but not this.
    We come from a patriarchal society wherein it's ingrained that the woman cannot speak out, she cannot raise her voice, she cannot express her freedom, children are bought up by adults and taught to respect, trust and listen to adults, the meek or the vulnerable child is no exception.
    For such unfortunate victims, it is not fate or ill luck that makes them, it is the society, even indirectly you and me for NOT ensuring their safety that is responsible for them to become victims. So, after suffering the indignity of abuse or atrocity, asking them to speak up would be a second blow that would lower us below something inhuman.
    What we need is NOT the minuscule percentage of the fragile victims to speak out. Instead, what we need is A CHANGE in the majority of the rest, the mindset of the perpetrators and the society. A child does not play with fire even though it's bright and attractive because it has been educated that it's wrong and harmful, you would suffer when you touch fire. Similarly, we need to educate the majority of the public that it is NOT correct to undertake atrocities against women, children and some men. Do it and face the consequences, this means swift justice facing a sentence of the life time or facing losing life itself.

  • #616586
    Reading the above responses the one thing that stands out is that the term 'speak out', is being confined to going to the media or to the cops or taking legal action. Imagine the courage any of these actions would need when women have been deprived of their voice for centuries. When there is a stigma attached to being the one who is 'violated'. Aren't women's' voices muffled – "adjust", "compromise", "this is your home" and "this happens everywhere", are some of the reactions she has to confront.

    #MeToo is not something that happens at work, and on the streets, alone. There is another kind of #MeToo that happens within the four walls of homes. The majority of women that I have known have suffered some sort of abuse. Emotional and psychological abuse is most common. So, does speaking alone stop this behaviour in men? Isn't it an attitudinal problem that exists within the men? Does that not have to be dealt with?

    #MeToo campaigns aren't the answer – they get hyped, and then what? Things remain the same on the ground. Has there been a reduction in rapes and other kinds of violence against women after the #MeToo? The Harvey Weinstein's of the world will put in a little more planning in their assaults to ensure that they do not get caught. You see the basic 'making' of a man cannot be changed. Not by raising voices.

    The fear of shame and imprisonment may deter a few men. But, those numbers are few. What would change the men is the way in which they are raised. I cannot stress enough, on the need to instil values, in young boys. Along with teaching boys to be tough teach them to love and respect.

    Speaking out is not a guarantee that what happened to me will not happen to another woman. Mindsets need to change and this can be done at home and in schools. Women should not need to speak out. As a woman and as an equal citizen of the world, I do not need to be told that I have 'a right to speak out' and that I 'should speak out' or questioned why I 'didn't speak out'. Why should these be even options that I should have to rely on? What about ensuring that there is never a need for me to 'speak out'? Would that not be the right approach? Should I be satisfied with the knowledge that if I am being mistreated I have the right to speak out? I, as a woman, need more than that. I need a world that I do not have to consider my options. I ask for a safer place. Create that safe world by teaching young lads that they have to co-exist with the females of their species.

    Women are reminded of a lot of things – how to dress, how to behave, about culture and more. Would it not be better if men were tutored the same way? Things would be a lot different if certain lessons are taught to every male child born in this country.

    Speaking out will not stop change the outlook of men. Men need to be 'rewired' and taught how to conduct themselves. And I think that is the more important thing to do. Don't tell the women and all others who face abuse to fend for themselves – instead work at building a safe environment.

    "A love affair with knowledge will never end in heartbreak." -Michael Garrett Marino

  • #616593
    Even after the victim speaking out, how many have been punished? It will be in media for few weeks, then every one forgets. How many men will be ashamed of the public knowing their cruelty? Very few. If they were actually afraid of the consequences, they wouldn't dare to do something like this.
    "Do not give up, things might not favour you always"

  • #616594
    From various previous comments, I have seen that most of the members have associated and limited all these atrocities to women only but we should remember even men and children are the victim of such atrocities.
    And it is more difficult for men and children to speak about such atrocities against him because of our patriarchal society and upbringing and lack of education to children against any such atrocities respectively.
    If we observe it man needs more courage to speak out against such things happened with them because their bringing up is such that they need to be strong and being molested it hurts the sentiment of male chauvinism and ego of patriarchal society.
    So we need the ways we give education to children in our society and the major change in kind of education they are given w.r.t any such atrocities which can happen against them in future or be happening around them so that they can raise their voice if face such situation without the fear of society and stigma associated with it.

    "It is hardest thing in the world to be good thinker without being a good self examiner"

  • #616604
    I'm glad that I'm not alone in disagreeing with the statement. We are proud to be Indians, we vociferously blame the West for their moral values, upbringing etc when we hear of abuse of children and women in their countries, Yet, we it comes to atrocities against our own women and children, we have the mindset that victims should speak out rather than the other way around. When we question the upbringing and culture of the West, why are we not mature enough and start questioning the upbringing of our own Indian perpetrators.

    Please stand up and ask the parents and family of a Husband what sort of values have you given your son who is abusing the wife? Please stand up and ask the families of rapists, what sort of kids have you bought into society who commits such unspeakable acts and then comes back home? Please stand up and ask the families of child molesters and ask what have done or not done to turn your son into a monster who abuses children, does he do the same to children at his own home? Such blunt, raw questions should be raised to know what is wrong in the nurturing environment of these individual who grow up to be perpetrators.

    So, Please stand up for the victims and Please stop asking them to speak out. Asking them to speak out implies a meaning that public should know that these events happen and the victims need justice. We all know that we have long gone past the stage of being aware of atrocities, we need stringent measures and punishment and we need it very soon.

    If we have to prevent a crime, focusing on victims may not be the best option in many forms of crime. Atrocities are a good example where in we need to focus on the perpetrators and not the victims. For every problem, we need to ask Why?, then find out How? the tackle the Why?

  • #616617
    I agree with the statement that atrocities against women/children can be reduced if the victims speak out. Silence that is surrounding crimes needs to be broken. Speaking out will bring that change. Irrespective of whether justice will be given or denied, it is high time that victims speak out. Once they find the courage within themselves to speak out about the wrong that is done to them, they will find courage to come out and seek solution about the same, instead of wasting themselves in the trauma which can linger in their minds forever.

    Victims often carry shame on their shoulders. They do not understand that this shame is quite wrong as they have done nothing wrong. Speaking out loud and clear will very well end this false shame. When one person does this, many others get inspired. They instead of hiding within four walls, come out and start seeking help. They understand that though the path to justice is difficult, but still not completely unattainable. First and foremost necessity is to speak out. If victims do not come forward then how can he/she can get justice?

  • #616635
    Atrocities against women and children? Why confine the range of victims? Don't men suffer atrocities? Passing the entire blame on men for the atrocities is absurd. Infact men would do anything to help a woman or a child.

    As the above responses unanimously agree that the Indian media and society are too cruel to let a helpless woman to speak for herself......I suggest women not to speak up directly. In order to survive in this patriarchal society and also find justice along road, the man of the house must step up.
    He won't be stopped by the society!
    As long as there is even one man to protect the honor of that woman or child, there is still a hope for justice.
    He can run the trial and pursue justice. He will the supporting the victim by all means.
    The only time when the victim needs to be present is - when she's called onto the witness box in court.

    The stronger a light shines the darker are the shadows around it.

  • #616641
    I would like to join the discussion by quoting these lines by a famous journalist, Rebecca J. Burns, "When I am asked why a woman doesn't leave abuser I say: Women stay because the fear of leaving is greater than the fear of staying. They will leave when the fear of staying is greater than the fear of leaving."
    What we need to do is make this change in the social, legal and family environment which will totally remove the fear of leaving.
    Rapid change in the attitude of a patriarchal society is almost impossible all of a sudden hence we need to empower our women.
    Hence, I would agree that instead of staying in an abusive relationship with the abuser and suffering immense physical, emotional and psychological pain, it would be better to raise our voice and speak out against the abuser. What will happen afterward and in the future can be dealt with later on but it will give the right amount of courage and confidence to the victim.
    Hence I would like to fully support the argument that atrocities against women/ children can be reduced if the victims speak out.

    "If things go wrong, don’t go with them"

  • #616642
    Speaking out the problem is always a solution for many problems. Unless otherwise where is the pain for you the doctor can not treat you. At least when you go to a doctor you should be able to say what is the problem you are having. In the same way in this case also either it is a child, a man or a woman, speaking out may reduce the atrocities against them.
    This is not the only point that is missing. On this issue, there are many loose ends to tie. If a victim goes and complains about her problem the concerned officers should also react positively and do the needful. But unfortunately, in our country, the rule makers and the rule protectors are the rule breakers. Under the special attractions they are getting offered from the other side, they all will try to make the whole issue reversed. This should be stopped. Under the Nirbhya Act in the organisations to safeguard the interest of lady employees a committee with ladies and some important officer of the organisation headed by an outside lady is to be formed as mandatory. They have to address the complaint received by any lady employee and they have to conduct the enquiry and once it is proved the culprit should be punished severely including terminating from the job. This whole process is to be carried out in a given time frame. This information is to be published in their annual reports. After the introduction of this, the lady employees got a lot of courage to speak. This statement I am making with my own experience as a committee member in an Organisation.
    Like this for complaints from general public also there should be a separate stream who can do the enquiry and other formalities quickly and without giving scope for any other considerations. Once this is done and the culprit is identified, there are should not be any other interferences and the culprit should be awarded a serious punishment. Then only these cases will reduce. Otherwise even after coming out openly the chances of doing justice to the victim is not possible.
    These cases are no simple cases to leave the justice to the regular court. There should be a separate stream as mentioned earlier who will enquire and decide the punishment.This stream can consist of the majority of ladies from various disciplines either in service or retired employees of Government and other important institutions. But questioning the parents or giving counselling to the culprits are not going to help these. Even proving and punishing, in the present system is getting delayed and is not helping in reducing these activities.
    Another point I want to stress upon is ladies should also get self-equipped for their defence. They should learn some technics to stop the abuses and they should also carry some protective devices with them so that they will be able to stop the other person when needed.

    always confident

  • #616643
    I would like to give an example of two cases of domestic violence in Delhi. One woman suffered abuse at the hands of her husband for ten long years and finally got a divorce after the relationship became unbearable. Her kids saw her suffer for a very long time and they became wary of any type of relationship.
    The other case was a strong-willed woman who did not think twice before slapping her husband in the face after he physically assaulted her in front of her kids.
    He never raised his hand ever again! The woman got divorced later on after a few years and her kids became her strength and supported her financially by running small errands so that she could pursue her career as a cab driver.
    The situations varied in both the cases but the problem was the same. It was dealt in two opposite styles and the results could be seen in the change in the behavior of the abuser, the kids and the victim herself.
    Speaking up and standing up against on the first abuse itself is the first step towards achieving justice.
    How the problems are dealt with by the victim also carve out a model for their children in the future. They learn to become brave, confident and self-reliant instead of becoming weak and incapable of fighting against the crime.

    "If things go wrong, don’t go with them"

  • #616663
    But domestic violence isn't the main thing we're focused on now. A woman can divorce her husband and have the child with her. Law is very supportive in the matter of domestic abuse.
    The discussion has long passed the domestic abuse. We are now discussing the atrocities women,children and men face in general. Sexual abuse, Gender bias, harassment both verbally and physically, dowry, domestic violence, absence of rights, denial to pursue higher education....aren't all of these different ways of torture?
    Most would blame the society, some would blame the "mankind".
    But all unanimously agreed that atrocities would reduce when the victims speak up. How do we let these victim speak up?
    Educating people about abuses and increasing the penalty didn't work. Most of us and even the generation before us must have had a gender sensitization programs. Yet these sort of crimes happen.

    The stronger a light shines the darker are the shadows around it.

  • #616689
    I have disagreed but for discussion sake let me play the Devil's advocate. Imagine I encourage a victim of atrocity (male/female/child) to speak up and convince the family to do so would be the right thing.

    1.At the first instance of FIR lodging, there would be sarcastic comments or the victim would be sneered at. Can't you settle it at home? would be often said.
    2.The abuser has every option to buy a few favors and portrays the victim in wrong light.
    3.In a matter of few hours, hordes of media channels will descend on the victim's home and relentlessly push to get the facts and make the victim relive the entire horror time and time.
    4.Certain pointed questions will be asked by investigative anchors for more TRPs. if the victim is a male, are you not ashamed of asking for help like this or are you doing this or publicity? If it's a female victim question about her clothes, moral behavior and friendliness would be asked.
    5.Then it would be in the papers with various angles added to it.
    6.For the next few days, everyone in the neighborhood who can speak will be giving views and counter views on the subject.
    7.The victim already burdened by the atrocity now has to suffer the ignominy of wearing a 'stay away' tag when it comes to social interactions within family circles, gatherings, friends circle and at work places.
    8.The victim would be the subject of behind the back comments and jokes for a few weeks.
    9.The case either fades into memory or captures the national headlines and lives are changed forever for the victims.
    10.Last but not the least, it's a matter of time when the same story is repeated and becomes one more addition to the statistical figures which should the last thing that should happen in such cases.

    What I have listed is not my imagination but the real course of events that follow with a victim or his/her family speaks up.

  • #616702
    Many people will be talking whatever they like. But thinking these points if the victim won't go and complain to the concerned what is the way the culprit will be punished? Again the answer for this is if the female gets equipped with self-defence techniques she can stop the culprit and she can come out without any problem.
    If one or two suffers also if they see that the culprit is punished quickly and harshly there is every chance the culprit thinking twice before they go for any illegal things. So in any way punishing the culprit only will reduce the frequency of the incidents. For that, the victims should complain and help the investigation so that justice will be done to the victim.

    always confident

  • #616705
    I would like to enter this GD by taking the starting with the definition from the dictionary for the term or word "Atrocities" which means, an extremely cruel, violent or shocking act. Now coming to the point of the discussion, let me disect it down into few parts:

    Atrocities against women:

    Let say that the women who was subjected to violence, be it physical or mental or of any sort, when they speak out in public, first the media tends to garner public support which in turns increases their TRP. Everytime she would be brought out for discussion, her family members, friends would face tireless trials by the media, relatives, neighbours etc. What does the offender and women gain? There will also be a sect of society who would give the offender the benefit of doubt. They might not even suspect such activity might have taken place, it might be hard to believe. The court takes it's own sweet time to deliver justice, they have their own justification for that. We can't blame them, as they many pending cases which has to be delivered, while justice is denied, in every corner one or the other women is subjected to violence and they suffer in silence due to their bonds. The bondage could be their kids, parents, family, social status etc.
    A women has the sense to understand that she is been subjected to Atrocities. A physical is very easy to understand and many women speak out and retalitate whenever there is a physical abuse. They do walk out of such marriages as well, even if it is in workplace it is easily noticeable and correct actions are taken. If the abuse is extreme beating and thrashing they can still speak out but when they are subjected to molestation and rape, they might refuse to speak, the ordeal and shame is too much to handle. It might take many more years for every women to bravely speak of their ordeal.
    Emotional and Mental Abuse is hard to understand, there are many women who are subjected to these abuses and yet they dont realise it. If you can't realise it hwo will you speak out?

    Atrocities against kids:
    The kids who are subjected to inhuman acts don't understand that they have been wronged, they remain in confused state as to what happened to them, many of them believe that they were at fault when they grow up. Since they haven't spoken since they were kids, they tend to believe there is no point in speaking out now about those incidents and nothing can be done even if they speak what was done to them years ago. They can speak to a counsellor so they can heal and forgive their mental wounds and make them understand that it was not their fault.

    Will it be reduced if they speak out?

    I would say NO, by speaking out, the incident might come into light, it takes ages for the matter to get proved while some might even get buried in the papers, the trauma will remain with them forever. The sufferer would always be women, it's time that the offender is ashamed of his/her acts. The #metoo has done nothing good, just that it has turned out to be fad in the internet and just because some womens haven't particiapted in it doesn't mean they weren't subjected to Atrocities.

  • #616712
    Atrocities against women children can be reduced if the victims speak out is the Group discussion. Suppose X a girl or boy getting raped by 'Y' X reported that Y raped him/her Y get punished life imprisonment or hanging before the law. But what is the status of X in the society?Do everybody in the society (even for the Matter X-relatives) will see X the same before that incident happened is the first question.

    The second question is will the Y's- death or serious punishment are the atrocities are stopped or reduced the answer will be known if we have a statistical inference in crime reports of a particular year on a particular state or district or Police station. Generally, there will be no substantial discrepancy in that before or after the incident happened.

    Generally, there are two different nature of people present in the society that who fear to do a crime one is god feared and two is who feared they are getting caught. They may change their nature according to the situation they are in.

    The other section of the people knows even they do the crime they think that they can escape before the law generally celebrities or politician sons or more rich people who have connections and influence with various sections of the people in society.

    I don't somehow agree with the statement 'Atrocities against women children can be reduced if the victims speak out'

    A blunt knife or rusted knife can't be useful for anything just for the sake we call it as the knife similar to PayTM series or Sachin or Virat records.

  • #616717
    If you negate the possibility of a victim coming out openly, then victim needn't. There are NGO and campaigns that help victims.
    When a collective force lodges a complaint, shaming by society doesn't matter much.
    Moreover, women will grow stronger by body and mind because of the existence of these organizations.
    Acid victim organization for example. They're doing an exceptional work in keeping their members mentally and physically strong. Thanks to that organization, though acid related crimes haven't reduced, the victims can still lead a happy life and have won justice a multiple times.

    The stronger a light shines the darker are the shadows around it.

  • #616722
    If the victim is made to believe that wrong has been done to him or her and their situation and future life is out of their hands then it will be the end of the road for justice .
    If they fear the social stigma, doubt the law and the judiciary and the media then this will not help them regain their self esteem ever.
    Their life has already changed due to that painful incident and there is anyone no more chance that it will become worse than this.
    Take the example of a rape or an acid victim.
    They have already suffered the worst in terms of physical, emotional and psychological pain.If they don't speak out against the offender , will they be able to live in peace.
    They will be in constant fear that such an attack may happen with another victim or with themselves again!
    Why should we make the offender even more bold?He or she was already bold enough to have committed the crime in the first place without fearing the consequences.
    Let me take an example of a woman who has spoken out against her abuser and is leading a happy life now.
    She is Laxmi Agarwal , who is an Indian campaigner with Stop Acid Attacks and a TV host. She is an acid attack survivor and speaks for the rights of acid attack victims.
    She was attacked at the tender age of 15 and she fought for her life and self esteem with her head held high.She didn't fear the social stigma or even care for the glared or pity given by her society.Rather she made a big contribution to the society.
    She filed a petition to curb acid sales, and took it till the Indian Supreme Court which made the Indian government regulate the sale of acid, and the Parliament to make prosecutions of acid attacks easier to pursue.She is happily married with a child now and has never looked back.
    Just imagine if she would not have spoken up against her attacker and hid herself in her house out of fear.
    There would have been more attacks and sale of acid would not be taken som seriously.
    India needs many more Laxmi Agarwal.

    "If things go wrong, don’t go with them"

  • #616726
    The topic of the GD is ''Active GD- Atrocities against women/ children can be reduced if the victims speak out- Do you agree?'' At the outset, I would like to intimate that I would write against the motion, i.e., I don't agree that atrocities against women/children can be reduced if the victims speak out.

    Let me start with my personal experience. Once I had the misfortune to remain present at the time of cross-examination of a rape victim (nowadays called a raper survivor) in the Court. I feel rape is the worst kind of atrocities committed on womanhood. I was in the Court to attend another case. I was ashamed and astonished by the utter lack of decency on the part of the lawyer appointed by the accused in the case. All sorts of intimate details were being asked by the lawyer to the hapless woman. I could not remain present inside the Court for more than five minutes. I went out. But many lawyers and people were enjoying the terrible 'show'.

    Now why have I started with this example? The topic says that if the victims of atrocities speak out in the open, then such cases of atrocities would be reduced. I think that in India and in other countries of the sub-continent, it is totally impractical. In the case mentioned by me in the first para of the response, the victim came forward and spoke out. But what did she get in return? More humiliation, more character assassination in return. I was feeling that the woman was being subjected to atrocity at greater proportion during the hearing.

    So, I strongly disagree to the statement of the debate.

    (I will continue my response in the second part.)

    Beware! I question everything and everybody.

  • #616730
    Fear or hope? You'll get only one. Fear the society and you'll be doomed forever. Victims will be humiliated in court because a case needs details. A lawyer needs to know everything in order to fight his best. Don't let that unnerve you. People might laugh when you're humiliated but they will be the ones who applaud when you receive justice .

    Speak up. Get support. Fight against injustice.

    The stronger a light shines the darker are the shadows around it.

  • #616745
    "If things go wrong, don’t go with them"

  • #616762
    I am in favor of the motion but I would like to explain my stand by referring to the comment as written in previous comments by Partha sir who is against the motion about the rape-victim in judicial court being shamed by asking the various intimate question.Here are few questions which explain this situation well
    But I want to raise the question what if the victim never raise the voice because of the fear of these trials will it be a right thing for our society?
    Will it be the right thing for a person not to stand against a crime because he/she will be insulted, ostracized and segregated by the society?
    No, it will not be a right thing instead it will encourage the mindset of the criminals that they are free to do any heinous crime without any opposition they are free to move no matter how serious crime they did.
    So all these things do make speaking out a necessary step for society and stopping it from becoming an anarchy but precondition are making an environment where survivors of such atrocities could speak out, can tell their stories without being trialed like a criminal instead of victims in the courts otherwise if nobody speaks about atrocities happened against them because of fear of trials our courts will be of no use.

    "It is hardest thing in the world to be good thinker without being a good self examiner"

  • #616781
    Smoking and Drinking are injurious to health. How many times we have seen these Advertisements and even labels printed on the wine bottles and Tobacco products but do people stop consuming it we have to see this also at this angle.
    A blunt knife or rusted knife can't be useful for anything just for the sake we call it as the knife similar to PayTM series or Sachin or Virat records.

  • #616784
    But Bhushan, I don't see how it's related to the abuse of women and children.
    Are you implying that even after continuous warning people still commit crimes?
    If yes, then I agree with you. Bad people will be existing in every era doing their dirty deeds.
    The only way to stop them from doing their deeds is to prevent them from doing it.
    Not letting a crime happen, is an utopian dream.
    But few measures like, an emergency contact that is mandatory for every woman to install in her phone, can prevent crimes. Or at the worst will serve as an evidence of crime. As for children, it is better for them to always stay in a guardian's shadow.

    The stronger a light shines the darker are the shadows around it.

  • #616803
    Partha, I agree with you. The lady who complained has to face a very bad situation in the court. But already she had the worst experience and she suffered a lot. Now if she goes back with a fear of telling the facts in the court, she will lose forever and there are chances for others also to suffer like her. Instead of that she is bold enough and answers the questions, justice may be done to her and the culprit will be punished. This will set as an example for other such criminals and they may hesitate to do such activities in future. In that way filing, a case is better and coming out openly is also good. The punishment must be exemplary and people should have a fear to repeat such crimes. The law and rules should be changed accordingly.
    always confident

  • #616810

    Yes, you correctly catch my point.Here we are not discussing whether victims speak out is good or bad? Do victim speak out reduces the crimes or not is the GD so my Answer is no it will not reduce the crimes.As I gave #616781 as an example there.After several warnings given consuming tobacco products and alcohol will lead to death there is no reduction in consuming those

    A blunt knife or rusted knife can't be useful for anything just for the sake we call it as the knife similar to PayTM series or Sachin or Virat records.

  • #616828
    This topic is about women and children speaking out against their crimes and the relevance in reducing crime. The answer is no to a large extent. First to undertand the issue of violence against women and children. The social stigma surrounding the issue at hand is very complex. The societal approach to the problem needs to be understood.
    What kind of society is India? First speaking about these issues within family is still considered a taboo in families. This gives a glimpse of the issue. The persons doing these are from every part of society like top bureaucrats, Judges, Professors to the vagabonds. The main issue is before the victim speaking about an issue the victim must be aware of violence. We still have not defined what is Violence against women / children itself.
    It is worst that even today rape is a punishment for a women involved in some illlegal activity in many panchayats. Particularly in caste dominated panchayats.
    Even today humiliating women members of family and threatening children is a form of getting back loan from defaulters in Rural parts of India by usury Money lenders.
    Further in #me too campaign recently launched in social network has shown us first we need to define what is harrasment.
    So in this society the very first problem for a victim is to identify what is violence. First society needs to debate on acceptable norms of behaviour. Everyone knows things like Rape, torture, doing / speaking anything against the whish of anyone amounts to harrasment.
    Suppose an adult does anything to a child against its wish then first the child must be able to discuss about it with parents or some one who can guide on such issues.
    Let us see some cases.
    1. A women of a low income illiterate family is is bring tortured by her husband. Now She had two children. What are her options?
    2. A highly reputed professor who is very influential and has immense contact in Government and Industry is sexually exploiting his intern. What are her options?
    3. The behaviour of a close relative of a family who is helping the family financially is not liked by a child of the family. What option does the child have?
    Let us see numerous such cases. In most cases the victim has undergone suffereings in silent.
    Speaking out by victim helps only when the activity is generally accepted by society as unacceptable and the offender is an outsider.
    But in India the sad reality is in most cases the offender is a friend, family member or someone close to the victim. In such cases the only solution is we as a society must
    1. Debate a lot and update on what is acceptable norms.
    2. Remove the social stigma around the victim.
    3. Make sure that the victim is supported financially, socially and politically innsome cases apart from punishing the offender.
    Without above measures asking / making the victim to speak can sometime become disastrous.
    We are in a country were we do not even accept marital rape. This is observation by Justice verma committee on Sexual violencd.
    Despite vishaka guidelines of SC we still prefer concilliation as a method in violences.
    In India mental abuse of a child is still not defined. Still only physical violence of children is punishable under law.
    In India it is unique where violence against women and children is done not only by passion and lust but also because of expression of power by a patriarchal scoiety.
    This is evident in issues discussed above.
    The recent #me too campaign can give a glimpse of what happens when victims speak out. This had lead to several controversy.
    First the incidents have happened at some part of their life by mostly persons known to them.
    Secondly there was a strong debate on what amounts to harrassment between men and women.
    Thirdly can public humiliation be treated as an acceptable norm of a society for claims not undergone trial.
    The time when we ask questions like above are openly asked and discussed we can get some solution.

  • #616834
    Citing the case of the litigation from a brutal gang rape of a social worker in Rajasthan when she was employed.She sought the help of various social activists and non government organizations to drag her attackers to court and for life imprisonment.If she being an educated working woman (and obviously knowing her fundamental rights and tools to achieve justice)would have become scared of social stigma and refused to speak out against these offenders then could we have imagined an illiterate woman in a similar situation gather the courage to speak out against the crime?
    I would say that women should not fear the consequences as the mentality if the society can never be changed.If you have not done any crime they why fear the criminal?
    Is being a woman or a helpess child such a big disadvantage that it makes us fall in our own eyes , even when someone manipulates their body and soul in such a filthy manner?
    It is the typical mentality of " izzat chalegai ladki ki" but I would say and believe that " izzat kisne kaha aurat ki Hai Kya aadmi ki nahin jati izzat?"
    Men who have wrong upbringing and exposure to illicit content have perverted mentalities and we need to redefine the definition of a gentleman in the society.

    "If things go wrong, don’t go with them"

  • #616836
    Gender sensitization and appropriate use of media by those involved can become the first step to tackle this issue.
    Once the values of gender-freedom and equality of the sexes are in place then only will this society confer the deserved status to the female and provide a secure environment to her. The responsibility for this lies with educationists, educators, administrators and the education-policy makers.This is or the long run but for a beginning, can a step be taken towards police reforms, gender-sensitisation of police personnel and those in educational institutions.

    Rapists have been even emboldened enough to sell the videos of their crimes in order to shame the victim and cause further agony to her and her family.How could they have become so bold ? The drawbacks in the investigation, legal and police forces make such criminals take advantage of the victims' desperate situation. The only solution lies in improved policing and higher convictions in rape cases and opening many fast-track courts in impending justice t the victim.The public should come together and shame the abuser so much that he never tries to look at any woman in an indecent way again.
    Keeping quiet will not only embolden the abuser but also engrave false accusations in the minds of the public. If the woman is bold and has gone through such an ordeal then she should muster the courage to walk around with her head held high.Automatically everyone will understand that this is a fighter and will not tolerate harassment of any kind from anybody.

    "If things go wrong, don’t go with them"

  • #616837
    Speaking out can be really dreadful for a victim who has gone through so much of physical and mental pain, but it is the only option which relieves him/her of that pain and burden of his/her suffering.
    In cases of domestic violence, marital rapes and tortures for dowry it takes years to build up the courage for the victim to speak out sometime this courage never comes and victim has no individuality, identity and waits for her/his misery to end by itself which is never going to happen till he/she himesef/herself take a drastic action.
    Because even god help those who help themselves. And no one is going to take stand for victim unless he/she have the courage to face the world (and this courage comes with the little support from family, relatives, and society).
    So instead of expecting to think that a victim needs to stay silent in the cases of such atrocities, we need to ask ourselves are we willing to help them?
    Are we willing to lend a hand of support from their side when all the people raise the question about their integrity?
    Are we willing to lend an ear when someone comes with his/her story of pain and misery?
    As there was a famous campaign "bell bajao" which implies ring the bell this campaign was against domestic violence and you might have seen many advertise regarding this- In which a neighbour overhears domestic violence in his neighbourhood and he simply rings the doorbell of that neighbour to made him realise that he is with the women who are suffering and without saying it directly.
    So we need to question ourselves are we willing to ring that bell? If we are than with our support the victims will definitely get the courage to speak out.

    "It is hardest thing in the world to be good thinker without being a good self examiner"

  • #616840
    Then we all unanimously agree that though speaking up will reduce the crimes, we are afraid about the victim being shamed by public right? That is what I'm trying to explain.
    We all know that it is impossible to come open in India like country. Let's give all of these victims a united voice or face. And the details of the trial and even the name of victim must'nt be disclosed to media.

    All of the victims who got justice and who yearns for it, should come together as a organisation. This would stop media from pinpointing a certain victim. These victims will choose a representative among themselves .
    This representative will lead the case.
    The victim's identity will not be disclosed .

    For my above proposal, I need to mend the law. Because current judiciary system cannot conduct a trial without knowing victim's identity.

    The stronger a light shines the darker are the shadows around it.

  • #616846
    After Nirbhaya rape case here is the statistical inference of rape cases in Delhi.Four years of Nirbhaya, Rapes in Delhi are tripled.So it is quite evident that Atrocities against women children cannot be reduced if the victims speak out' Prevention is better than cure the same thing will apply here if the probability of occurrence a crime is minimised then automatically the crime rate will be reduced. It is a well-known fact for all of us.
    A blunt knife or rusted knife can't be useful for anything just for the sake we call it as the knife similar to PayTM series or Sachin or Virat records.

  • #616848
    If the victim is not able to come out and go to the court for justice, we may have to look for other options. Another way of protecting herself is to become strong in some martial arts like Karate and face the victim strongly. For the ladies should learn some courses and get trained in self-protection technics. They will come in handy in case of emergencies and protect herself when needed. Indeed she can help any other female who is facing a problem anytime, anywhere. So parents should encourage their daughters to get trained in these skills from their early ages. She will be encouraged to participate in various competitions and get trained better. Once she has become good in these skills she can catch hold of the culprit and hand over him to police.
    always confident

  • #616879
    Mr.Bhushan has a valid point, despite Nirbhaya case, the number of rapes have tripled. Now we could argue that it was because of increased awareness. I think, its a disrespectful excuse that would be used by certain departments to save their jobs. The true fact is that despite victims standing up, these events keep happening unabatedly. Every few months, there are reports in the papers about an unfortunate rape victim denied right to terminate the unwanted pregnancy, sad stories of 12 year old children have their own children due to the atrocities committed against them. The media is always around to remind the world and the victims who have come forward about their nightmares. people never loose a chance to keep the issue in memory. Whereas the people who commit these atrocities relatively go unpunished or with just a fine or a slap on the wrist.

  • #616894
    Yes. We all know the stats. But can you suggest a remedy for this situation?
    Atrocities don't seem to stop.
    Dr. N.V.Srinivasa Rao gave nice suggestion that women and children must be taught self-defence.
    But here's the question. What if the abuser is the victim's own father or some relative?
    You cannot defend yourself physically.

    The stronger a light shines the darker are the shadows around it.

  • #616901
    Why one has to spare his relative or even father if they are misbehaving or abusing her. A father or a relative should not abuse unnecessiarly her. It is not human. She can decide whether she has to use the weapon ornot, once she is having it with her. At the same time the relative and father will be a little careful when they know that she is having self defence technics with her. Anyway, it will be for her advantage only. So I feel parents should taught sending their children from the younger stage itself.
    always confident

  • #616914
    There are two main stream of points in the above discussion. I also find that one stream is being predominantly being endorsed by women members of the site. It is the view that scoiety must change the general environment first rather than making the victim to do something. The other view mostly from men members of the site who protray victim must do something. There are exceptions too. But this protrays how the two dominant sexes of the society are viewing the issue. Some of the view that victims must do something include the below.
    1. ow some members have suggested things like learning defense skills. This is practically possible only by atleast a middle income family. But mostly Rape victims are from the low income family. They cannot training fees. Then learning any skill must be out of interest. If any women / Child is not interested then making them to learn under pressure for the sake of protection is itself will become a torture.
    2. The next is backing from NGO /media. But mostly these will be helpfull only in Urban Areas. In India crimes against women / Children are more in Rural. But several go unreported.
    First the very thinking that victim must do something is not correct. We must look from society. We must changes the mindset of society.
    when a leading jounalist went to Jail Were Rapist and criminals who committed crime against children were lodged she came with conclusions.
    1. They beleive that marrying their victims will provide reprive.
    2. Some still beleive what they have done is right.
    Many conclusions brings the fact of mentality of our scoiety.
    The kind of society we live is also important. There are societies were what is wrong in a civilised scoiety are considered to right.
    I am avoiding names in reply intentionally to not target anyone.

  • #616928
    Continuing my response, I would like to analyse the word 'atrocity'. Atrocity can be of many types, however, it can be broadly classified as physical atrocity and mental torture. Atrocity is committed not only on women or children, it is also committed on men. Atrocity is committed by a powerful person on a person less powerful. Religious atrocities are committed in Pakistan and Bangladesh on religious minorities. Caste atrocities used to be committed on people of so-called higher castes on people of lower castes. Many people suffer from mental torture in their working places.

    In spite of various types of atrocities committed on men, women and children, most of the participating Members have confined themselves to discuss physical atrocities committed on women in India. But I am going to take the atrocities committed on men, women, children and also on transgenders. However, like others, I will confine my discussion only in India, because there is not much scope to discuss atrocity in the world.

    Let us take the case of children. Many children suffer different types of atrocities. Physical atrocity on children is committed by parents, teachers, relatives and sometime neighbours. The children are beaten mercilessly. The children don't report the matter. The suffer silently. Even if they report, the others think this is perfectly natural. Nowadays children also suffer sexual assaults. This is a terrible offence committed by the paedophiles. Children first remain silent. When they report the matter to their parents, parents also advise them to remain silent. Only if the assault becomes unbearable, the assaulting person comes to picture. If he/she is a powerful person, then the matter is put under the carpet. Such assault creates an unremovable scar in the minds of children.

    So far as mental torture on the children, no data is available. The sensitive minds of the children get wounded everyday by various incidents, but nobody, not even the parents, bother to put a healing touch on these unseen wounds.

    So, we can say that in case of children, the atrocity doesn't stop even if the children speak out. The society including the parents and near relatives are generally insensitive to the pain of these young children.

    Beware! I question everything and everybody.

  • #616934
    The best weapons which are handy for urban and working women are their smartphones and pepper sprays.Indian women armed with smartphones are using social media to fight sexual harassment by filming and publicly shaming men who molest them as greater awareness of violence against women spreads.
    Recently, a young Indian woman used her smartphone to shoot the video of a man sitting behind her on an IndiGo airline flight who tried to grope her between the seats. She filmed her rebuke of him in front of the other passengers.
    This is one good technique for the educated women.Publicly shame them then and there and threaten them that their indecent act is now going to be made public with the click of a button.This will surely scare them and prevent them from repeating it.
    Coming to the rural side where women do not have access to technology and media, they have to be alert and hide small weapons to scare them like small knives and sharp tools if they feel that they are going to face any trouble if they walk alone or are outside the house.

    "If things go wrong, don’t go with them"

  • #616937
    According to conclusions by experts and social scientists, the main causes of this oppressive nature of committing atrocities on women had been found out first.
    1)The patriarchal system and its values were major factors contributing to the prevailing negative environment against women.
    2)Cases of rape and molestation were analyzed and interviews conducted in many localities . 3)Factors such as weakened community and neighborhood ties.
    4)Lack of privacy in slum clusters especially, migration, the breakdown of the joint family system .
    5) Dilution of parental authority, availability and exposure to pornography were also factors.

    A counter strategy was developed and this involved identification of a target area, the potential victims and potential perpetrators.
    1)Police personnel were given special training.
    2)Door-to-door campaigning, counseling and distribution of pictorial leaflets and posters was done.
    3)Street plays and pantomimes were organized to talk about the sensitive issue of how women were treated
    4)Schoolchildren in the neighborhood were also sensitized to the issue in order to make all the members of the society change as a whole in their attitude, awareness, and behavior towards women in general.
    5) Intensive and focused campaigns to empower women through self-defense programmes were conducted.
    This strategy had brought about excellent results in terms of decline in cases of rape and crimes against women.It also helped bring in the much-required element of positivity in police-community relations and goodwill for the police.
    These are the broad milestones which if followed by each local community and even extending till the urban areas which can make India a safe place again.

    "If things go wrong, don’t go with them"

  • #616972
    Atrocities against women and children are increasing in our society these days. I wouldn't say the victim should keep quiet but I doubt how far it is going to reduce the cruelty towards them.

    (1) First and foremost, these cruel men are not even sparing small children, What will they speak? They do not even know what is happening to them? Only the parents can understand it but will they speak out? I will not blame them for not doing so, as they need to think about the future of the child. A molested child might have to face a lot of issues as they grow old. Which parent would want to make their child go through all these?

    (2) It is a fact that some children or even women die during the cruelty. Can they speak up? How do we expect these atrocities to reduce in such cases? The mental condition of the parents might not be in a state where they can speak up. Just because they didn't do it don't we want to reduce this cruelty? So we need to find other ways which can actually stop the cruelty forever.

    (3) Another upsetting factor is sometimes women or children have to face these cruelties from their own father, brother or uncle. How can they speak up in such cases? Who will protect them or support them?

    Our women and children are not even safe at their own home. There are men who marry women with the aim of selling them to others to make money. Most of the time she is trapped, how will she react or speak out?

    We need to be mature enough to understand the mental state of such women who have undergone such cruelty. She has suffered a lot, hence we can't let her suffer more. I think it is better to react before something bad happens. We need to train our females on self-defense. It is very much required, as she is not even safe to travel alone. The driver can also turn out to be her murderer.

    "Do not give up, things might not favour you always"

  • #616980
    Members. You are all missing a crucial point. The crime has happened! Don't talk about prevention or self-defence anymore.

    The topic is- if a victim comes out openly, will there be reduction in abuses and crimes or not?

    The crime has happened. The victim has suffered. Suffered, even after taking the precautions. Now she/he has two options :
    1. To speak
    2. To not.

    There is no doubt about it. The victim's manifestation and her narration of her sufferings will reduce the future crimes. Humans learn through experiences. Experiences of their own and others.
    We all will have some lesson to learn from the victim if she speaks out. It isn't just better for her, it's better for us.
    I gave my proposal regarding how she's supposed to speak out in an overwhelming society. Through a group. An organisation.
    Even villages have women unions. Crime against children will never be tolerated in both urban and rural areas.
    The accused will be punished quick.
    It is the women victims that face the embarrassment.
    All they need to do is find a face and voice to speak for them, to evade embarrassment.

    Please think about my proposal without deviating.

    The stronger a light shines the darker are the shadows around it.

  • #616983
    As I earlier said that Crimes will not reduce if the victims speak out the only thing the criminal will get punished.When I was college days an incident happened in college one guy came with a sharpened axe murdered a girl in front of many students in the class this happened in Guntur. after that, there was tight security check for students who are entering in the college premises later there was another incident that acid was sprayed on the college girl so there are Multiple ways a bad deed can happen.
    A blunt knife or rusted knife can't be useful for anything just for the sake we call it as the knife similar to PayTM series or Sachin or Virat records.

  • #616993
    #616980 Do we just want the victim to speak up? What we want is no women should face such cruelties again. We can't be with her always and neither can we get rid of all criminals. The only way left in front of us is to teach them self-defense mechanism to fight with these cruel souls. At least they themselves can protect them. When a victim speaks up, we expect the criminal to be punished. There is not only 1 or 2 criminals, but many. By merely speaking up we can't catch all of them. But we can definitely train all girls the ways to safeguard themselves. Which do you think is easy?

    Secondly, do you think a victim can narrate the incident happened to her? No, she is not made of rock, but a human like you and me. She can say the name of the person if she knows him. What if it is a gang rape? Even it is a single person, she wouldn't know his name or would know his whereabouts. What do you expect her to speak out? The incident? She can file a case, but can we assure her that the criminal will be caught and punished? No, but we know that after everyone knows the issue, her life will be miserable. This outlook of our society has to be changed. People should not look her with contempt but should stand beside her and support her to catch the convict.

    Another point I would like to add is, we should not always blame men for all these atrocities, there are women who are behind the scene who actually trap the innocent girls for other men. We the society should consider the victims as a girl in our family, only then we can behave properly to her.

    If the victim can speak up, let her but don't make her feel that the decision she took was the worse one she ever did. The case gets dragged and it will take years to punish the criminal, by then he will definitely abuse many others as well. So what is the point of speaking out?

    "Do not give up, things might not favour you always"

  • #617001
    In this part of the response, I will discuss about the atrocities committed on men and transgenders. Although this aspect is being neglected in the present discussion, men and transgenders do face various types of physical atrocities and mental trauma.
    Men face atrocities in their working places by their bosses (both men and women). The face atrocities and insult in villages by people of higher castes. They face various types of atrocities in their villages, in shops and in other places. Economically weaker people face the wrath of rich people. Less educated people suffer in the hands of so-called educated people. The atrocities are not reported. Even if, the people who suffered, speak out, society or law-enforcing agencies generally don't take notice. The various forms of atrocities cause deep mental scar in the minds of affected men.

    Needless to say that transgenders face many atrocities every day, every hour. They are addressed in derogatory terms in every part of the country. Some transgenders are sexually exploited. Many people consider them inauspicious. Most of the transgenders live an abominable life. Their interaction with other two genders are barest minimum. Some policemen consider them criminals and in case of any crime, the transgenders are rounded up by the police for no reason. The injustice to the transgenders has almost become a norm of the society. We, the people, don't even bother about the plight of the transgenders.

    In the next part of my argument, I will discuss about the atrocities committed on the women.

    Beware! I question everything and everybody.

  • #617014
    Once such atrocities are committed, the victims speaking out is not going to help as it will become a show of sympathy, a few candle night vigil and then a few debates on like and this ISC thread, a few days later we'll all forget it and get busy with our lives. The what should be done? All we need to do is identify the culprits and put them on the stage quickly and punish them in a way that anyone thinking of such atrocities against women,men,children or transgenders (Mr.Partha's thread) will forget such thoughts for sure.

    Our current laws and punishments are like a slap on the wrist of a child how steals a cookie from the cookie jar. It will never work. What we need is punishment that instill fear and encourages perpetrators to think. For instance, we all would have illegally parked our cars on the road, we do it knowing that the punishment is a small fine. But the same, imagine if the punishment was the risk of losing our license to drive, would we still illegally park? No, we would be careful and search for a parking lot. Similarly, such perpetrators should be brought to justice quickly with the risk of losing their right of freedom in life for the rest of their lives or even losing their very life. Get this done, then we would immediately see a sudden drop in the number of such instances, rape, molestation, abuse of victims, abuse of a daughter in law, mother in law, wife or husband.

  • #617021
    Chitra. You nicely pointed out the flaws in my previous response.
    What if victims' identity is unsure or unknown?
    Great. But there must be some sort of lead. No crime is perfect. Someone must have seen the person commiting the deed. The victim bears the crucial samples of her offender on her body.
    I don't think she'll be blindfolded. So she can see where her offenders are going after the attack. Though she doesn't know them, small leads like name plate of vehicle, color of shirt, previous encounters etc.., will be definitely noticed by her.
    Sure. She'll be in a traumatic state. But the anger and vengeance will guide her towards the smallest of leads.

    But again and again Chitra. The crime had been committed. The very topic of this debate assumes that the culprit's identity is known.

    The stronger a light shines the darker are the shadows around it.

  • #617022
    I'm seeing that even when the deadline is closing in, we are all far from concluding the discussion.
    I have already given my idea of how a victim can speak up.
    Members, please give your conclusion as well promptly.

    The stronger a light shines the darker are the shadows around it.

  • #617027
    I don't agree with the response that Ms. Chitra made that a victim will not be able to speak about her offenders. We all remember the case of Nirbhaya an incident of national shame even in that condition which is even difficult to imagine Nirbhaya told the doctors about the culprits and atrocities happened to her.
    Even when she wasn't aware that the whole nation was standing behind her. It is about taking a stand for one's own self.
    And even after committing such heinous crime the culprits of this case were neither ashamed of themselves nor were they felt any guilt because they think it is their right to dominate women to teach her a lesson.It's all because of the upbring with they grow up a society which they saw were women are not their equals but doesn't stand anywhere near them.
    Their mentality is shown clearly in the video called "India's daughter" by BBC which is banned in India.
    And until this change of mentality doesn't happen nothing is going to change until men and women of this country have a thinking attached to the feeling of a patriarchal dominance nothing is going to change.
    What we expect from a victim is a silence for atrocities which she/he has to suffer because there will be some questions from people of rotten thoughts and it will give the victim more pain?
    But would that pain be any less than a lifelong misery of silent cries and agony?
    We are asking to stay silent to a person who is already in agony and pain and letting a culprit free. Really what kind of society are we building up?

    "It is hardest thing in the world to be good thinker without being a good self examiner"

  • #617030
    Women and children, and even men have always been subjected to various forms of atrocities. This was the starting line of our discussion.Enough has been focused on the violence and atrocities against women and children.Men too have been subjected to mental trauma in cases of abuse by women.A good example would be Section 498A of the Indian penal code which is a tough anti-dowry law.
    It has been misused a lot by the bride and her family to revenge and harass her husband and has even caused many suicides in many cases.The law had become a tool for extreme blackmail and extortion.
    What should men do in such cases? Be quiet and not speak out?
    If they do not speak out and seek support from relevant social activists and NGO's or even take the case to court, their entire family will suffer.
    Injustice is not related to gender.It can occur in many forms at any place and to anyone.If it occurs to a woman or a child in India, they are indirectly forced to keep silent for fear of loss of respect in society and the effect it will have on their future.
    If it occurs to a man, should he "be a man" and project that he is tough and emotionless as he is taught to be since growth.
    The other side of our patriarchal society shames men if they show emotion, shed tears or are even compassionate towards their wives and children sometimes.
    Will keeping silent solve the problem in the man's case too?
    Thus, I would like to conclude that yes, everyone, irrespective of their gender, age or sex needs to speak up to stop the atrocity.

    "If things go wrong, don’t go with them"

  • #617038
    Now I am going to discuss the issue of atrocities on women. This issue has been extensively discussed by the other Members. Generally women are physically week. Many people see them as object of lust. They are thought to be mentally weak (although in lakhs of cases, the opposite has been proved to be true). Many people of medieval mindset treat women as property. Rape of women is the manifestation of male ego of superiority. It can also be expressed as the consequence of treating women as objects of lust.

    In addition to the physical assault, women are also mentally tortured. Many people, especially in rural areas, consider women are of low intellect. Various obstructions are created against higher education in women. Girl child gets less opportunity than male child in education. Many people still don't allow girls to study Science subjects. They think this is not their forte.

    Throughout ages, women are protesting against physical atrocities against women and mental torture. The women have been protesting against the medieval mindset of males. Throughout the world, the women's lib movement has developed. This movement is in different conditions in different countries, considering the socio-religious condition of the country. As for example, Saudi Arabian women have just got the legal permission in their country to drive cars, whereas this issue has never been in the agenda of women's lib movement of western countries.

    Despite women are coming out more and more openly against the atrocities committed against them, what is the result? How many men are being convicted? Even the woman who comes out to protest, other women try to stop him. Men and women take part in her character assassination. The police behave extremely rudely with her. The experience in Courts is truly horrible (I started my first response with a Court scene which I witnessed). It is just like another rape in front of lecherous people.

    I feel this is not the solution. The atrocities on women, children and weaker section of men won't stop if they come out in the open. So, what is the solution?

    The solutions (not a single solution) will be discussed in the last part of my response.

    Beware! I question everything and everybody.

  • #617051
    We are coming to the end of this discussion.
    There are many atrocities committed on women, children and men at times by their own family members or fellow beings. Does these victims speaking out helps? I don't think so, we will in a country where rules are flouted, FIRs modified, witnesses coached all with the help of money, power and intimidation. The same helps the perpetrators to go scott free of just a warning.

    So, let's not humiliate the victims and the families by adding insult to their suffering by asking them to speak up. What we need is justice that is served to these victims with speed and force. People feel uncomfortable when we talk about death to these inhuman beings who commit the these atrocities.They feel its too cruel. Ask any victim or their family, they will give you the answers. Is it not cruel and inhuman to abuse a child, is it not cruel to rape a woman, it it not cruel to harass a man for his caste,orientation etc. Is it not cruel to welcome home the daughter-in-law only to force her to commit suicide to escape the torture meted out to her.

    What is the fault of the victim, often we say wrong place,wrong time and bad luck. I would say, their fault is being born in this society where in abuse and atrocities happen with unnerving brutality and yet all we can do is tell the victims. Yes, we are sorry that this has happened? Can you just come out on the stage and relive your nightmare? we think it would help rather than punishing the perpetrators.

    The victim and family would laugh at us and then ask us, What kind of society we living in wherein the pathetic examples for human beings are left to continue their atrocities and all you have to tell us is please speak up? The victim would state, I (victim) am ashamed to have been born in this society, I hope my fellow citizens would also feel ashamed for not safeguarding my integrity and modesty.

  • #617054
    #617027 Not, always she will be able to speak. It all depends upon her courage and willpower or maybe her situations. No one is asking her to keep quite. I have never mentioned that. My point is we should not force her to speak out. The reason being once it comes to TV channels, they will make the victim suffer. For channels, it is just a masala news. When this approach changes, she can speak up. But first, we need to change the approach of the channels, society etc before demanding her to speak out.

    There was a case in Kerala named Abaya case. It was about the atrocities towards a nun. Sister Abaya was actually murdered in 1992. Initially, the case file was closed saying it was a suicide attempt. But the people and her family did take it up. After 25 years the accused were put behind the bars for the first time for 49 days. Recently the convicts were punished, with the involvement of CBI. I don't see justice here. She died 25 years ago, that is not a short period of time. So long the case was delayed. The culprits definitely might have indulged in much more crimes during this 25 years. This proves just speaking out can't help in reducing crimes.

    Cases should be investigated and culprits should be punished quickly. There is no point letting the accused live freely outside for many years and finally putting him/her behind the bars when they are old. That will not help in reducing the crime rates.

    Recently, in Kerala, a film actress had faced a bad situation which included kidnapping her and sexual abuse. But she was not able to speak out who was the actual person behind the play. Few names did come up but some believe that an actor had arranged few people to do all these.If that is true, the actor should be punished. Isn't it? But the actress still does not know whether the actor was involved in the play or not. If only the middlemen involved are punished, the main person will still do the same because he can easily arrange other people as middlemen.

    This case was in news for few weeks.It is more than six months since it happened but no action has been taken against the actual criminals, whoever it is. The actor was denied bail initially, and all his fans and audience came to know about it. I do not know whether he was behind it but he is still considered as one of the convicts. The point here is, I don't think he is ashamed of it. This 29th he is going to Dubai to open his new restaurant there. He will definitely have to face a lot of people.

    An actress who has a lot of fame and popularity is not secure, then imagine the plight of common people. Still, the case is not yet solved, why? Because money plays a role. Everyone knows the issue, the actress does get sympathy. But is that what she deserves? No, she should get justice. Justice delayed is justice denied.

    To conclude, I would like to add that merely speaking out, will not help to reduce the rate of crimes.
    (1) Investigation process should be quick and the officers should be able to take an action without considering the position or hold of the accused.
    (2) If found guilty, capital punishment should be given. Just imprisonment for years is not the best idea. Depending upon the intensity of cruelty, the criminal should be killed or hanged to death immediately. Killing him in public is also a good thing as people will learn from seeing that. The crime rate will definitely reduce as others will be afraid to do similar crimes in life.
    (3) Channels and media should stand for the victim. They should not try to change the route of the investigation or add masala to the incident to increase their rating. Strict actions should be taken against such channels, only then they will learn. Even we public can do it, by boycotting such medias or channels.
    (4) From schools itself, teach our girl's self-defense techniques. It will definitely help her to protect herself from evils. Give her the courage and show her that you support her.
    (5) Teach our boys to respect girls, teach them to protect them as how we protect our mother and sister. We can build a better generation, at least the girls of tomorrow will be safe.
    (6) Our women should change, they should not do any sort of cruelty to other women for the sake of money. Don't make it easy for men to reach her. Fight him with all your energy instead.

    "Do not give up, things might not favour you always"

  • #617067
    Atrocities against women and children in any form are not acceptable but unfortunately due to aberrations in our social system as well as poor governance these issues remain only confined to discussions and practical solutions do not emerge. Those who have suffered keep a low profile fearing further threats from the offenders.

    In countries where law and order situation is good and authorities are vigilant such offences are very minimal and even in those rare cases the victims and their supporters come out in open to protest and get the offenders caught by the authorities.

    In our country as the condition is not so favourable for the victims so many times they have no option except to keep a low profile.

    At the same time it is also true that if victims come out openly in public and people support them the authorities will have to take action and many times the culprits will be brought to books.

    Knowledge is power.

  • #617083
    In our society time and again we hear about the atrocities done on women and children. Many times victims do not complain against these offences fearing that offenders attack them with a vengeance.
    Today we are living in a society where these things are being taken very casually as people feel that complaining may not be helpful in getting justice for the victims.
    There are few cases where victims are bold enough to complain and fight the case for justice though only in rare cases the culprits are punished.
    So even if the victims come out boldly the things are not going to improve much.

    Thoughts exchanged is knowledge gained.

  • #617086
    So far, I have tried to establish the fact that not only women, children, males and transgenders also face atrocities. They also face mental agony and strain due to various discrimination prevailing in the society. Many people have spoken out. Mane males, females and children have brought the matter to light. But their voice have been drowned. That has been done intentionally. When the oppressed go to the police stations, police ridicule them. They decline to lodge FIRs. When the oppressed, brutalized children tell about their ordeal to their guardians, guardians try to silence them.
    So, we can conclude that only speaking out by the victims can't solve the problem of atrocity committed against them. So what is the solution?
    I will discuss the solution in the concluding part of my argument.

    Beware! I question everything and everybody.

  • #617124
    In the concluding part of my response, let me summarize. Earlier I tried to establish that atrocity is committed on males, females, children and also on transgenders. I have also tried to establish that even if the victim of atrocities speak out, they face more ridicule. The society is not sympathetic enough to listen to their cry for help. So what is the solution?

    Now my answer is very different. There is simply no solution-at least collectively. At individual level, we may raise the consciousness. People have to be more sympathetic. They have to change their mindset about women. They must have to learn that women are not merely objects of lust. For rape victims, in-camera trials must be held. The Courts must ensure that the rape-survivors must not face 'public rape' during Court proceedings. Parents should listen to their children. Relatives and teachers must understand the metal set-up of children at impressionable age. People must learn to give due respect to the transgenders. Educated people must be sympathetic and give a patient hearing to the male victims of different atrocities. Breaking the silence by the victims is not the only solution.

    However, all said and done, I feel that from human society, atrocity cannot be totally wiped out. Human society has been developed on the basis of inequalities. Some people are financially strong. Some are physically strong. Some are educationally strong. Some people think their religion is superior. Some people think their ideology is superior. And human being has ego. The false sense of superiority coupled with ego causes atrocity. And unfortunately atrocity will remain in one form or another till the extinction of human beings.

    Concluding my response, I express my best wishes to other participants. I thank Mr. Saji Ganesh for organizing this interesting GD.

    Beware! I question everything and everybody.

  • #617132
    There are various laws and punishment made for those who commit any atrocity towards any other person despite gender, age and social status whatever the basis of these atrocities. There are books written on these rules.
    But are they effective , they are not until the crimes done are not known unless someone speak about them.Until we are not aware about whether a crime or atrocity happened against someone how do we expect to catch the culprit and punish him?
    So the first and foremost thing is to speak out, to stand up for the justice because no one is going to help the person until that person seeks that help.
    1.Children who are most vulnerable part of society and an easy prey for the criminals to commit any atrocities are needed to be taught about standing up and fight back for what is wrong, they need to be taught to tell everything which they feel slightly wrong to their parents and trust their parents most. And if a child is made strong from very childhood he/she will be able to fight against any harshness that society put forwards for him/her.

    2. People need to leave their patriarchal mindset and understand other genders to be equal humans as they are instead of dominating them. And dangers of male chauvinism needed to be taught at very beginning of life so that a male doesn't grow up with an ego that he is superior to others, and a girl doesn't grow under a fear of thinking a male is the only protector of hers and she does not have her own individuality or unique identity.

    3. Society needs to understand the trauma of a victim and sympathize with them instead of finding sensational stories and aspects of the life of the victims and trying to find out the mistakes of the victim instead of the culprit.

    But as I said earlier also and I am repeating it again speaking out may seem scary, insulting, shaming and can even make the victim feel guilty but unless he/she speaks out how the society will be able to understand his/her situation. And unless a person does not show the courage to fight against atrocities against him/her why anyone else will fight for him/her. Because mob always needs a leader who can speak out it does not have its own voice and does not have its own opinion and believes whatever a person with courage speaks.

    "It is hardest thing in the world to be good thinker without being a good self examiner"

  • #617133
    As far as I am concerned the Entertainment media should play a huge role in reducing the atrocities on any gender by simply stopping violence provocative serials and movies. As there is a thumb rule by seeing things we can easily get habituated than Listening. For example, in a movie, they show that A hero simply escapes by doing a bad deed as the police will fail to catch him.
    A blunt knife or rusted knife can't be useful for anything just for the sake we call it as the knife similar to PayTM series or Sachin or Virat records.

  • #617142
    As all said and done the unreasonable incidents on all genders are occuring. These atrocities will come down only when there is threat of life to the culprit. In our country the law will take its own course and we can't expect a fast and deserving decision. So even the victim speaks t out also unless otherwise the system system is not tightened we can't expect any just nice in time to the victim. To reduce these incidents the people should be ready to save themselves. For that everyone should have the required self readiness. This only will bring change in the culprits
    always confident

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