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  • Category: Reward Programs

    Active GD- Love Jihad Law is against the freedom of religion- Do you agree or not?

    In the well-known case of S.R Bommai Vs Union of India, a nine-judge bench of the Hon'ble Supreme Court ruled that 'Secularism is the basic feature of the Constitution of India'. It also held that if the state mixes religion with politics or follows any unsecular policies, then that would be against the mandate of the Constitution.

    Articles 25 to 28 of the Constitution of India deals with religious freedom guaranteed to the citizens of India.

    Now, the Uttar Pradesh government has promulgated the Uttar Pradesh Prohibition of Unlawful Conversion Ordinance, 2020 which basically seeks to prohibit unlawful conversion in any manner. But section 6 of the Ordinance specifically states that any marriage that is solemnized solely for the purpose of unlawful conversion can be declared null and void by a Family Court unless prior sanction of the concerned Magistrate is obtained to convert and marry. Another important point to be noted in this regard is the definition of 'allurement' that has been provided in the ordnance. The term has been expanded to include any benefit that may accrue as a result of such conversion and that includes a better life. Again, Section 12 of the Ordinance places the burden of proving that the conversion was not unlawful on the person who causes such conversion and absolves the person who converted of any liability. The law does not apply to marriages under the Special Marriages Act where both individuals retain their religious identity but are solely applicable to only such inter-faith marriages where either of the couples converts to another religion to conduct a marriage under any personal laws.

    We also need to note that many states are planning to follow UP in this connection and has already started preparing their Ordnances which would have the same effect.

    I have just outlined the Ordnance that is facing criticism from various quarters so that the participants have an idea of the background in which this Active GD on the topic Love Jihad Law is against the freedom of religion- Do you agree or not? is being announced.

    This is a very vast topic and covers many aspects but we suggest the discussion be restricted to whether the Ordnance is Constitutional, whether the State is legally authorized to interfere in the religious freedom guaranteed by the Constitution and if so on what grounds and basically whether it is an intrusion into the Fundamental Rights guaranteed by the Constitution as a whole. You may bring in related topics, grounds and views to support your arguments but the focus should be on the points enumerated above.

    Important Note- Participants may please note that this is a very serious topic that we are going to discuss and the matter under discussion is itself controversial. Therefore, you must take due care to control your personal emotions and must not make any derogatory or provocative remarks against any government, religion or person. Any remark that is felt to be transgressing acceptable limits will be removed immediately even though it is not generally done in GDs.

    {It would not be proper on our part if we do not mention here that Mohan had raised a thread today on the topic whether Inter-faith marriages should be allowed or not but the same was shifted to pending since the admin was planning a discussion on the Love Jihad law from a wider perspective. Please note that this GD is not based on Mohan's thread but he would be suitably rewarded for bringing up a part of the topic for discussion.}

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    Let us have a healthy, active and fruitful discussion. The GD will close on the 07th of December 2020.

    Best participants selected will be awarded a cash reward of Rs 150/- each. Other participants will also be considered for cash rewards if found eligible.

    Note: The editor who is moderating the GD will have the final say (in consultation with the team) in matters of dispute (during discussion) and a point or guidance put forth as a response by the moderator need not be responded to by the participating members.

    Read the requirements carefully, think seriously, properly and logically and start posting your points and arguments.
  • #716791
    I start with a big NO to Love Jihad law. I am totally against the ordinance passed by the UP government. It affects the right of an individual. Politics should not interfere with religious freedom, especially marriages where only the consent of two individuals is required. I Would continue my argument if anyone is in favour of this 'Love Jihad' law.
    No life without Sun

  • #716797
    I hereby support Mr Sun. I am against the Love Jihad law. Marriage is entirely a personal matter. Two adult individuals who are interested to get married would decide which faith to follow according to their choice. No one can force a person to follow a particular faith, be it an individual or a government because a person has a right to choose his or her religion. Nothing should be thrust upon anyone because an individual should get an opportunity to follow what he or she wishes to do. Suppose a person converts only to get married then it is his/her choice, why should it be termed as jihad? When we say God is one, then how does it matter which religion a person wants to follow. One may wish to experiment through conversion, then it's his/her choice, which should not be looked upon as a controversial matter.
    shampasaid

  • #716799
    In a secular country, where all the religions are treated equally, and where the citizens live as members of one family, and whose blood is of the same red colour, It is imprudent to think about a law against marriage between two people of different religion. While we support inter-caste marriage, why not inter-religion marriage?
    No life without Sun

  • #716806
    I would say that love Jihad law is not against any religion. It is against those people who are misusing the freedom given in their religion. This problem has to be understood by delving more deeply in the matter. No religion is bad and no religion says to practice any sort of torture on other religion people. If a Hindu boy marries a Muslim girl, he cannot force her to observe the Hindu religion because the girl is in love with the boy not in love with the Hindu religion. Similarly if a Muslim boy marries with a Hindu girl then he cannot force her to observe the Muslim religion until unless she willingly does it. She also loves the Muslim boy but does not love the Muslim religion. In such cases knowing well these things before marriage, if a person goes for the marriage and then forces the partner to observe his religion then it is an act invoked by a criminal mind and many people have taken advantage of this in the name of the religion. Religion has become a weapon to do certain unethical things. So to curb those practices this law is enacted. There is no culture or tradition or religion which tells people to adopt wrong practices and if they do then suitable corrections in the existing law and if required will have to be sought in the constitution itself. This has happened in past many times and suitable amendments in constitution were made. The Govt has all the right to change rules and regulations in line with directive principles of state policy and constitution and also has full right to change constitution also in the overall interest of the people of a country.
    Knowledge is power.

  • #716808
    Umesh
    For this, a separate law or ordinance is not required. If the spouse from the other religion is ill treated on the name of religion, he/she can approach the court, and the court can deal with the case, if possible, divorce can be granted. No state other than a state ruled by a hardcore Hindu has come up with such ordinance. Under the ordinance, they might deal with all personnel adopting inter-religion marriage. This is mainly to stop Hindus shifting to Islam, which is incorrect.

    No life without Sun

  • #716812
    Sun:
    If there is one or a few isolated cases then going to court is one good solution but when this thing happens in many cases then it becomes an alarming thing and a sort of social curse and then Govt has to search for a solution and only possible solution for such large scale problem of harassment and conversions can be met only with suitable legislature. The law had evolved in any matter like that in the past by solving the problem of people at large. There had been a number of amendments in constitution and modifications in the existing laws. Such problems generally come in inter-religion marriages.

    Knowledge is power.

  • #716815
    When the Supreme court says that Individuals of major age can select their own life partners cutting across any faith the promulgation of ordnance by Yogi government in UP has brought in fresh controversy as the Lucknow police has already started acting on the new law and stopped the interfaith marriage thereby signalling that the rules would be imposed strictly in future and therefore the inter faith marriages may not be held. It seems the consent of the DM would be final for the marriage which was to be held was postponed. I am of the firm opinion that when the consent was mutual between the boy and girl, and when they decided to get married with elders support and knowledge, nothing should stop them. Here the friends may play the spoil sport as they may not allow such marriages to be held in the name love Jihad.
    K Mohan @ Moga
    'Idhuvum Kadandhu Pogum "
    Even this challenging situation would ease

  • #716818
    While one state in India is for a Love Jihad law, the Karnataka high court has said that the right of an adult to marry a person of their choice is a fundamental right guaranteed by the Indian constitution. The UP government's ordinance against forcible or fraudulent religious conversions, which provides for imprisonment and fine under different categories, is understood to be openly anti-Muslim legislation.

    There cannot be two different schools of thought on one subject. It is purely a Hindu act against other religions in our secular India. The Supreme court of India should intervene and stop this non-sense ordinance.

    No life without Sun

  • #716824
    @Umesh

    Sensible and educated people would never force his/her spouse to convert, and we have many such examples in India. They are happily married, but in an uneducated society, conversion of faith could be forcibly imposed. The point is if a partner has no objection in converting to another religion then why the government is so much bothered. Everyone has a right to personal life, but if any conversion does not disturb anyone else or harm the sanctity of the society then they should not be penalised in any way.

    Nowadays, everyone knows about divorce as well as in villages there are so many welfare societies run by NGOs, so if anyone gets tortured in the name of inter-religion, then voice against it can be easily raised. To stop conversion in the name of marriage, a government passing an ordinance is just unacceptable.

    In Indian culture, it is a practice that a lady once gets married then she has to follow the rituals and system of her in-laws family. A girl grows up in one culture, ideology and various other practices, but her entire identity changes with marriage. No one has objected to it, why? It is so difficult to adjust in a whole new way of living but women do so. In such a scenario, if a girl's faith is changed and she has no objection, then why the government needs to interfere in it by passing an ordinance. Giving it a name of jihad is so ridiculous. It seems we are digressing from our secular stand. Forced conversion is always unlawful, and that can be taken care of by registering a complaint.

    shampasaid

  • #716829
    Love jihad, after marriage one converts his or her religion. How far it is correct? Why should one change his religion for the sake of marriage? The bride or the bride groom should see that the parents who bought them up would like to get them married in their own religion. Have you ever noticed people getting converted into a Hindu or a Christian? No, it is only we getting converted to their religions. Hence, I am against this Love Jihad. Why do we need such a practice that keeps us apart from our parents and our religion?
    Lead the leader

  • #716835
    No, Love Jihad Law is not against the freedom of religion. Actually, it is to protect the faith. The law supports the freedom of rights and freedom of choice.
    In India, there are many broadminded people for whom religion is not there primary identity. They want to live in a free atmosphere where any person from any religion can marry another person from different religion without either of them changing their faith.

    We all know that each family like to marry in their community only. And the inter-faith marriages happen as an outcome of love affairs. I think when two people know each other, likes each other and then they are fully aware of their religion also.

    Then there must be no question of conversion after marriage. And when a person converts to get married as per his / her choice, the ordinance still giving them the freedom to apply through district magistrate legally. I think it will be a much secure way so that nobody raises any question on them in future.

  • #716844
    #713824
    Shampa:
    There are many traditions and conventions in different religions. Till people are following them within the framework of that religion then there is no problem but when some notorious and aggressive people want to use it as a weapon for conversion or harassment then actually state has to intervene and bring some legislation. The basic purpose of any Govt is to take care of all the people of society so that there should not be any exploitation of any community in intermarriages or intermixing of some other kind. During the Mughal invasions in this country, forceful conversions were done because at that time we were not having one democratic system and were divided into small and small kingdoms and the invaders took advantage of this fact and many Hindus were forcibly converted. I do not think that all of them were love marriages. Today we are a democratic republic and any religion which is misusing its traditions and conventions to create difficult and binding situations for other religions should not be allowed to do so in any form. These are simple corrective measures for making an egalitarian society where rights of all are protected.

    Knowledge is power.

  • #716903
    As far as my knowledge goes this law is not against any faith. It is also not in support of any particular religion.
    The law defines punishment and fine under three different heads. If any person is found guilty of conversion administered through misrepresentation, force, undue influence, coercion, allurement or by any fraudulent means in contravention of the law would face a jail term of one to 5 years. In addition to that, a minimum fine of Rs 15,000 will also be imposed. If that conversion is of a minor, a woman from the Scheduled Caste or Scheduled Tribe, the guilty will be sentenced to a jail term from three to 10 years and also Rs 25,000 towards the minimum fine. If this type of conversions is taking place in a mass the guilty will be punished with higher punishment and penalty.
    Another point in this law is that if any conversion is forced on one of the two partners by the other partner forcefully and without the consent, the marriage will be null and void.

    In this entire law where is the question of stopping the conversion from one to another faith.

    drrao
    always confident

  • #716905
    This law is not stopping anybody to change their religion. It is also not stopping anybody to marry a candidate from another religion. If the boy makes a complaint that the girl and her relatives are forcing him to change his religion, or the girl complains against the other party, then only the problem starts. If I want to change my religion I can do that by applying for the same in the application format as prescribed by the government and I have to declare that I am not converting to another religion because of force or pressure from somebody Later if there is any discrepancy the government may impose punishment.
    II am of the opinion that this law is not against inter-caste or inter-religion marriages. This is not against the conversion of religion. But it is only against the conversion or marriages which are happening against the wishes and the desires of the bride and/or bridegroom.
    I feel the government has every right to change the constitution also in the overall interest of citizens of the country. All the governments made so many amendments to the laws and constitution in the past. This law is not going against any fundamental rights an individual is having.
    The law is against the people who are making somebody scapegoats for their own interests.

    drrao
    always confident

  • #716906
    Umesh Sir,

    We all know that Father of the Indian Constitution Dr B R Ambedkar himself converted into Buddhism from Hinduism. No person forced him to convert, but he decided to change his faith because he felt the Dalits were made scapegoats by the upper caste Hindus. Thus, the caste system of Hinduism was always a threat for the backward caste.

    In marriage, if a girl or boy decides to change religion for the sake of her/his own family, then let it be so. Those who are disinterested in changing faith then the marriageable person should oppose it. If both the sides do not agree then one can opt-out from getting married. The concept of an egalitarian society is fine, but intervening in the matters of two adults is unacceptable. Why should an adult need the permission of the government or magistrate to convert religion for marriage when it is a personal matter? He/she is not disturbing anyone else in the society. It is all about a person's connection with his/her religion. Changing one's religion should not bother anyone else because following a faith is an independent choice, which has been promulgated by Dr Ambedkar himself, the creator of the Indian Constitution.

    shampasaid

  • #716919
    The ordinance has been promulgated to prohibit "unlawful conversion" from one religion to another. The ordinance is to prevent love jihad cases where marriages are being carried out solely for the purpose of religious conversion. The main aim of these marriages are religious conversion only and they have nothing to do with love. And, it has been frequently noticed that when a boy of different religion marry to a girl of different religion, he and his family start to pressurize to convert her religion. These kinds of incidents will be stopped/ reduced now after this ordinance.

    #716824
    Sensible and educated people would never force his/her spouse to convert. But what about less educated/uneducated people? As you have also mentioned that in uneducated society, conversion of faith could be forcibly imposed. Do they have rights to impose their faith on other forcibly? We all are living in Independent India. According to Article 25-28 of the Constitution of India, which protects the right to freedom of thought, belief and religion, freedom of religion is a fundamental right guaranteed. Everyone has full rights to follow his/her religion and even if they had an inter-faith marriage, nobody has the rights to convert other's faith.
    And if any person forcibly imposed his /her faith to his/her spouse, he /she has full rights to raise his/her voice. The ordinance gives protection and prevents forcible conversion through marriages.

    In history, several examples are there who had interfaith marriages. Out of which Akbar & Jodha is most famous. They both respected the religion of each other. And Maharani Jodha never converted her religion. Now in Bollywood, several actor and actresses have inter-faith marriages and each of them is living with their religion and nobody is converted.

    Further, if a partner has no objection in converting to another religion, again the ordinance is supporting them legally.

    The ordinance is not against inter-faith marriage and conversion but is against the "unlawful conversion".

  • #716924
    #716919

    It seems you have not read my point of view fully. I mentioned clearly that any force to convert one's religion for the purpose of marriage is unlawful. In that case, the person who is forced is free to register a complaint. It is a known fact that if something untoward takes place, then a person can take help of the law. Why should be a special ordinance for it? Love Jihad, the name itself makes us feel that love is a war, and it has a second angle too. Love Jihad, both the words love and jihad represent two different communities, isn't it? There is an inner meaning to it, which many people try to ignore but that's an intrusion in one's fundamental right.

    shampasaid

  • #716925
    #716808
    A new law is required when the existing low does not work or not cover the specific point/issue because any law is made keeping in view of anything. According to Article 123 of the Constitution of India, Government promulgates ordinance to pass critical laws or to deal with the extraordinary, unforeseen or emergency circumstances. UP is not the first state passing such ordinance. Similar kind of Act (Freedom of Religion Act) was enacted by several states in past like Odisha (1967), Madhya Pradesh (1968), Arunachal Pradesh (1978) Jharkhand (2017). Promulgation of the ordinance is also required for immediate action on any specific issue.

  • #716930
    #716924
    "if something untoward takes place". Why wait for happening something untoward? The special ordinance is promulgated to prevent such unlawful act before happening. In this ordinance, nowhere it is mentioned that it is against inter-faith marriages.

    Why should be a special ordinance for it? Please read my response in post #716925.

    And as far as Love Jihad is concerned, it is entirely a political term and being used by some people to highlight the issue. Anybody can take this word as per his understanding. The term is nowhere mentioned in the ordinance also.

    In the ordinance it is mentioned :
    The ordinance has brought out an effective law to check conversion with some stringent punitive provisions against individuals and certain organisations if found to have indulged in the conversion of using force, deceit, by way of alluring into marriages or any other improper manner.

    In this text, neither inter-faith marriages nor love jihad is mentioned. The ordinance is clearly expressing that it is against the people who are engaged in forced religion conversion.

    Further, inter-faith marriages still will be done as per the Special Marriage Act 1954, where both parties will have to give a 30 days' notice to the magistrate and then they can marry legally.

    As per the ordinance, if any person wants to change his/her religion then he should give a notice of 60 days, so that the reason behind this conversion can be checked, like the Freedom of Religion Act already enacted in various States.

  • #716933
    If we see the villages and rural areas, many people are forced to change their faith. So for the sake of changing they will change the religion on paper. But they will continue the practices of their original religion. Why so? When we talk to those persons they will say that they are not interested but they were getting forced to change. Is it correct? Is it democracy? This law is against such people only. To avoid such forced conversions only, the government of UP wanted the person to take the permission from the government and they wanted the person to apply in advance so that the government can enquire about the concurrence of the person who is applying for conversion.
    I read somewhere that in UP there are many complaints registered in police stations in which they complained that they are getting pressurised for changing their faith. The government's intention is to stop such pressurising and forcing technics by somebody on people.

    drrao
    always confident

  • #716934
    After seeing the responses of the members I will again reiterate my view that this law is not taking away the privilege of observing ones religion. That is not the intention. It is simply to curb some bad practices that some people are doing in the garb of religion.
    One thing that we have to understand is that the state Govt has done a lot of deliberations to arrive at this law. No Govt brings a legislature because of the whims of a particular person. This is based on a large number of cases where common people had suffered the tortures and forceful offences in the name of religion. This is the culmination of a long series of such unfortunate events some of which were lingering in court also but could not be decided unambiguously in absence of a proper legislature. So in nutshell, this was a long needed change in the earlier law. Whenever Govt takes such exercises the results are criticised by many people some of which are the normal common gullible people who do not know the background and history based on which this was promulgated and some are those who will now be deprived of doing atrocities on the people who fall in this trap which starts with love but ends with betrayal and sin.

    Knowledge is power.

  • #716942
    I want to say here that the ordinance promulgated by the UP government is not that different from the law enacted in Arunachal Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, Odisha. The Freedom of Religion Act enacted in Odisha, MP, Arunachal Pradesh, Jharkhand, Tamil Nadu was for prevention of forced religious conversion, while in the recent past two states Uttarakhand and Himachal Pradesh enacted Freedom of Religion Act in 2018 and 2019 respectively. These two states introduced marriage word in their Act for the first time.

    In the Act, Uttarakhand Govt. mentioned in their Statement of Objects and Reasons that "We have come across incidents in which with an agenda to increase the strength of their own religion by getting people from other religion converted to their own religion, people do marry girls of other religion by misrepresentation of their own religion and after getting married to such girls, they get them converted to their own religion. Several instances came in notice that people convert themselves to the other religion only for the purpose of marriage with the girl of that religion and after marriage they got that girl converted into their own religion."

    From the above text, it is clear that the law is not against the inter-religion marriages but against the people who purposely marry girls to get them converted to their on religion.

    UP Government Ordinance is also same as Uttarakhand Freedom of Religion Act 2018 and Himachal Pradesh Freedom of Religion Act 2019. The main difference is in the penalty clause. According to UP Government Ordinance "Forced Conversion" is a non-bailable cognisable offence. Under which the person found indulged in such an act will be jailed for 6 months to 3 years and penalized with Rs. 10,000/- fine. In the case of mass conversion, there is a provision of 10 years of jail.

    When all other states enacted the Freedom of Religion Act earlier and nobody objected why this time?" This ordinance is almost covering the same points like others only a step forward(Penalty clause).

  • #716943
    After reading the various opinions of the esteemed participants who are supporting the motion, I want to remind them that laws get manipulated too. As we all know that Anti-Domestic Violence law is misused immensely. Numerous innocent grooms and their families suffer humiliation, a blame game and punishment for no fault of theirs. In many cases, brides and their families have used the law wrongly. The Love Jihad Ordinance would also meet the same fate.

    We must not forget that every family does not support love marriages especially the interfaith love marriages. The groom or bride whoever changes religion for marriage, his/her family who is against the marriage would utilise the love jihad law to put an end to the marriage of their child. Such an Ordinance would be extremely manipulated by those who are against the inter-religion marriage.

    shampasaid

  • #716949
    #716943

    The name of the ordinance is Uttar Pradesh Prohibition of Unlawful Conversion of Religion Ordinance 2020 and it is not Love Jihad ordinance as some people understand. And nowhere Love Jihad is mentioned in the ordinance.

    Further, similar Acts already exist in other States and I don't think that anybody is misusing it.

    Inter-faith marriages are not affected by this ordinance as they will come under the purview of Special Marriage Act 1954. That ordinance will be applicable only if any complainant files a complaint of forced conversion of religion.

  • #716951
    #716949

    I am sure you are well aware about the title of the GD, so using the term 'Love Jihad law' is in no way incorrect.

    For the second point you raised regarding the misuse factor, you must be aware that the present political scenario as well as people are gradually becoming fanatic about one's religion. It is at its peak now, so misuse cannot be ruled out.

    The third point is a reiteration . We know that rules are meant for the law books and they get broken very easily especially when hardcore attitude is practised by the lawmakers. Thus, it will be better to evaluate not on the basis of a rule in pen and paper, but what's the ground reality.

    shampasaid

  • #716956
    This interfaith marriage is going on for many years. Why a sudden requirement of a special ordinance against this practice? What went wrong now? If we all know that there are laws existing for inter-religion and inter-caste marriages, why should we think of having a new law on this subject. Surely, this is the Hindu politicians who want to play against other religions in our secular country. A law to create unnecessary problem between the religions.
    No life without Sun

  • #716959
    Traditionally in our society after the marriage the girl goes to the house of the boy and then lives there. In this system if due to religious reasons if the boy disrespects or disowns the girl then it is a big offence. It is not a question of which are the two different religions these two people belong. It could be any combination. The point is that love between two young people culminates in a marriage and till that time everything seems to be alright and it is assured by both the sides that one is free to observe ones religion in ones own way. Marriage is a moral contract and once this type of understanding is there then it should continue after the marriage also and none of the partner should change it as per his dictatorial will. If such a thing happens on a large scale and people are effected especially the young girls who go to live in other houses then it requires a remedy at the Govt legislature level otherwise it would become a social cancer in our country and we will be looking at it as a helpless passer by. Many people contend that why such a law was not enacted earlier if it was so urgent. The reason is that society and politics are interwoven and the political groups for their own convenience let such things go to exploit the religious sentiment of some people and pretend to show that religion is above law and above state. We should remember that no religion is above the law. We cannot have one yardstick to measure some activity and other yardstick to measure some other activity. If it could not had been done by earlier Govt then it does not mean that the present Govt should also not do it. Laws always evolve in that fashion only. It is the dire necessity that law makers are compelled to enact good laws replacing the ambiguous and indecisive laws which were in vogue so far.
    Knowledge is power.

  • #716986
    #716951
    I am fully aware of the title of the GD topic and I have mentioned that some people understand it as Love Jihad Law, including (media, some politicians and some people). However, this ordinance has nothing to do with Love Jihad.

    Your perception of rules and law is wrong. Rules and laws are not meant for law books they are made to govern the people and society. They fix the norms of the conduct for citizens and acts as guidelines which are accepted and followed by the people. In case of violation, they must be penalized. If a law is not strict, it will not be work for the purpose it is made for and some people may consider it as the hard-core attitude practised by the lawmakers.
    The ground reality is that the similar acts already exist in other States and the ordinance passed by UP Government will later become a bill and an act and it will be followed like other laws.

    In a recent case in UP when a marriage between a Muslim boy and Hindu girl was stopped by Police because of a complaint filed by someone. Both parties informed that their marriage was fixed before the ordinance was passed, and they are not converting their religion and if the permission is required from the magistrate, they will seek it. So, people are accepting the law and ready to follow it happily.

  • #716994
    Yes. In the title of the GD, ' Love Jihad Law ' is used. But these words are not there in the law. These words are created by the media.
    In some places, innocent girls are being sold to old people and they are marrying these girls and forcing them to change their religions. The girl will be away from all her near and dear and she can't resist and if she tries to resist she will be harassed without any hesitation. So to save herself she may be accepting for the change.
    In India, there are reservations based on caste. Some people may lose their reservation facility if they change their religion. In some cases, their category of the reservation may change when they change their religion. SO people will never make the change official. But they will change. It is nothing but deceiving the government. That is why I feel the government is correct in asking the person to apply in advance for change of religion. It will serve two purposes. One is the conversion will be official and the conversion is intentional or under forced conditions can be understood.

    drrao
    always confident

  • #717016
    Love Jihad may not be a word used in the ordinance. But it is relating to the media created love jihad. Let it be anything. My question is - what is the necessity to pass a special ordinance on the inter religion marriage at this juncture. A law is already existing in our country where the procedure is to be followed . Can any member answer my question?
    No life without Sun

  • #717030
    #716986

    That's the point you must understand that when the GD title is Love Jihad, then the participants will use it. Secondly, politicians will never use all the cards openly. Most of the people are not ready to accept the inner truth of the Ordinance, which is sad really. The Ordinance does not use the Love Jihad title but it's coined one which is in full usage.

    It's great that you are capable of judging a fellow participant's perception ability. Thanks for your guidance. I believe that the said Ordinance is uncalled for because strict laws are not always well accepted and respected, but it sounds like a threat to ordinary people from which the mass would like to remain safe. People would gradually accept the law willingly or unwillingly because messing with the authorities is not always possible.

    #716994

    I have mentioned in each post of mine that forced conversion is always wrong. One who faces pressure should register a complaint and the authorities will take the due step. You must not ignore the fact that laws are misused and many innocents suffer due to it.

    A jewellery advertisement on an interfaith couple by the jewellery brand Tanishq for their Ekatvam, which was so sweet and touchy was withdrawn. It was so because the brand was blamed for fanning love jihad. What a pathetic thought process we have developed! Thus, when Indians are not ready to accept a sweet advertisement, then how do we expect that inter-religion marriages will be accepted without any hindrance. Such Ordinances are bound to play spoilsport.

    shampasaid

  • #717031
    I really don't understand why the members favoring the Love Jihad Law is not ready to answer my question posed in my response number #717016. When you accept something, you should be able to say why you accept it now? During a discussion, you should be able to answer a question raised by a member.

    I repeat my question - While there are already orders on interfaith marriages and the procedure to be followed, what is the necessity to introduce a new ordinance on the same subject? What has gone wrong now ?

    No life without Sun

  • #717034
    #716994
    As you are also accepting in all you posts that forced conversion is always wrong, and the ordinance is also against the unlawful or forced conversion. Then why you are against it? Because in absence of any law, the innocents are already suffering a lot. The UP ordinance will help the complainants of Uttar Pradesh.

    #717031
    I already had answered you query (#716808) in my post #716925.

    I request please don't get confused in inter-faith marriage and unlawful or forced conversion. As I already said that he said ordinance is against the unlawful or forced conversion and not inter-faith marriages. The ordinance is applicable only in case of unlawful change in religion. If the boy and girl want to marry and do not want to change their religion then they can go for it. Special marriage Act 1954 is already there. But if either of them want to change the religion in that case only they will have to seek permission through magistrate. It is necessary so that the official can check whether it is forced conversion or voluntary/genuine.

    Further, I request you to please re-read the ordinance word by word. Though I am also giving some sections here from the ordinance:

    [Section 3: Prohibition of conversion from one religion to another by misrepresentation, force, fraud, undue influence, coercion, allurement or marriage
    The ordinance states that no person shall convert or attempt to convert any other person from one religion to another by use or practice of misrepresentation, force, undue influence, coercion, allurement or by any fraudulent means or by marriage.
    If any person reconverts to his/her immediate previous religion, the same would not come under the ambit of this Ordinance.

    Section 6: Marriage done for the sole purpose of Unlawful Conversion or vice-versa to be declared void
    If marriage is conducted for the sole purpose of unlawful conversion or vice-versa by the man of one religion with the woman of another religion, either by converting himself/herself before or after marriage or converting the woman either before or after the marriage shall be declared void.]

    From the above sections, it is clear that the law is not against the inter-faith marriages but only forced conversion.
    Further, in the earlier Acts enacted by other States marriage word was not added. But Uttarakhand in 2018 and Himachal Pradesh in 2017 added word 'marriage' in their Freedom of Religion Act.

    Many States already have their Freedom of Religion Act but Uttar Pradesh does not have. And there were increased number of cases of forced conversion in Uttar Pradesh, to stop such cases the UP Govt. promulgated the said ordinance. Thus Uttar Pradesh is not doing anything new and it is not a special ordinance.

  • #717035
    I like to bring to the notice of the members that all people who are suffering can't go to the police. Especially ladies hesitate to go and make a complaint. When the surroundings are not in favour of the lady and when they are not able to move out from the place of residence how one can expect that lady to go and complain. It is not possible.
    I don't know whether many of the members are aware of the fact that many innocent girls are becoming victims in such cases. So save such people only this new bill.
    Many members told in their responses that this is not against interfaith marriages. It is only forced changes in the faiths. Many other states already implemented this law. Nobody talked about those issues when implemented.
    I since again mention that the law is not against interfaith marraiges.

    drrao
    always confident

  • #717036
    Dr.Deepali,
    Can you tell us what was not there in the earlier interfaith marriages, and what is there in the new ordinance on interfaith marriages?
    Any forcible marriage or forcible conversion is a crime. This already exists in our constitution.

    No life without Sun

  • #717064
    The saddest part of India and Indians is, we all talk about safeguarding girls and women, but we are not keen to understand the root cause of any problem. When girls choose a partner from any other religion, they are usually misunderstood. In most of the cases, the families of the ladies add a wrong colour to it. They always consider their girls to be innocents whom the boys have lured. This is pure tragedy. Let the couples decide their life unless they are minor.

    Earlier I have mentioned in one of my posts, Domestic Violence law is very much misused in India, especially by the educated and middle-class families. It will be the same in the Love-Jihad cases. The ladies will be suppressed by both the sides, and ultimately their life will become a mess. Let the adult couples take a call themselves, and neither families nor authorities should intervene unless one of the partners seek help from concerned family or authority.

    shampasaid

  • #717068
    #717036
    Respected member, already I have explained in my posts and I can't understand why you are repeating the same question again and again? But as you are asking, again I am repeating my answer.

    Earlier inter-faith marriages were covered under the Special Marriage Act, which is still the same. The boy and girl who want to marry they can still marry under this Act. The main change is that the issue of forced conversion was not covered in this Act, and that was not covered anywhere.

    Earlier to stop mass conversion (mainly of the tribal population), Odisha, first, imposed the Freedom of Religion Act and later many other states implemented the same Act. Later in 2018 and 2019, Uttarakhand and Himachal Pradesh observed another issue where boys marry girls and then get them converted. To stop such incidents, they added the word "marriage" to the Act. So the earlier Act was not covering the issue of "forced conversion by marriage and conversion for the sake of the marriage." It is also given in Section 3 of the Ordinance (Refer my post #717034).

  • #717080
    After going through the responses of the members and arguments put forward, I will reiterate and conclude my views on the subject that when a legislature is passed after a lot of deliberations and after going through the hardships and problems faced by so many people in the country, subsequent to inter religion marriages, then where is the question to doubt the very purpose of this modified law. It is not easy to modify a law time to time. It is the experience and case histories accumulated over a long time period that a law is modified. Just go through the example of article 370 and also 35 which were enacted for Kashmir as a special case in the post independence time. Now what the leaders found that though it was done in a good faith, it ruined the state as there were terrorist activities, isolation from mainstream India and many such setbacks the result of which was faced ultimately by the common people in that state. The progress halted, tourism sank, and many more negative attributes were created in the young masses who also learned bad and evil things from their confused parents. Finally, Govt had to change the law. So, changing a law is a compulsion on the part of ruling party because they are answerable to whole nation and not only to their constituencies.

    When we think in national level and National interest and have a doctrine that country first and religion next then all sort of corrective measures are required to be taken to make the law more congenial for the people and it should not favour a particular religion whichever it may be at that point of time. If a Hindu boy marries a Christian girl and after the marriage tortures and harasses her for observing the Hindu religion and does not allow her to go to Church, he should also be dealt severely through the new law. The law is said to be perfect when it does not give an edge to anyone from any religion.

    Coming to an important matter in this context one thing we all have to note that laws cannot be changed frequently. We have seen it happening in past. Constitutional changes take their own time. Modification of law is always a complex process because all those whom it starts harming in the sense that they are deprived of continuing their ill conceived plans, will be against it and try to revoke them. But a strong Govt will not allow that because it understands the reason of all hue and cry made by the disgruntled people. Another important thing is that if a law is enacted then it does not mean that it is final and will be their for the coming centuries. No, it was never like that and will not be so in future. When the effect of law will be observed in the coming times and it will be found that common and gullible people are getting its benefit, it would stay. If there are again information that people are misusing these new laws in one way or other or it is creating some other problem in the society which is bigger than the earlier ones then the law can always be reviewed by this Govt or the next Govt which will come to rule the state and the country after the next elections. A law will not be removed or modified immediately because it is not suiting to some influential people in the society. In due time modifications will take place everywhere and this present new law will also not be an exception. Improvement is an ongoing process and slowly we are moving in a right direction.

    Knowledge is power.

  • #717087
    Umesh,
    Don't compare Kashmir issue with this marriage of interfaith issue. They are different issues. Kashmir issue was a pending issue that government has put an end to it. This marriage issue is a common issue and interfaith marriages are taking place from time immemorial. Any forced conversion can be dealt by the court at any time if reported. This latest law on interfaith marriage is unwarranted and uncalled for. This ordinance has been passed with some motives to stop Hindus getting converted to Islam. The rulers fear that the Hindu nation is in danger.

    No life without Sun

  • #717106
    We can't discuss the matter with assumptions and thoughts. What is there in black and white is more important. Let the members understand issues on the ground. Again and again, talking about interfaith marriages and linking this law with that is not correct. There is nothing against interfaith marriages in the bill. The bill is purely about forceful conversion of faiths.
    When a boy and a girl of different faiths like each other, they should be able to like the faiths and way of living with each other. If one of them really wants to change their religion, there is no problem he/she can change. But one can't force the other partner to change the religion. In such a case only this law will come in. So I am of the opinion that there is nothing wrong in this law.

    drrao
    always confident

  • #717131
    Mr Rao,
    The question is - If it was not for the interfaith marriages, what was the need now? People had been changing their religions, not through marriage or otherwise also. Was there any mass conversion of religion by force? The recent incidents of arresting people for interfaith marriages is to be clearly understood. There are about seven cases after the introduction of the ordinance. It is only the couples who are caught. They were mutually agreed interfaith marriages. There was no force behind their conversion.

    What I would emphasize is that it is the fear of Hindu's converting as Muslims in a Hindu nation. Nothing else. It is a baseless fear by the government run by Hindu politicians.

    No life without Sun

  • #717146
    Nobody in this GD talked about fear Hindus getting converted Muslims. Why this question has come in this. Any person who reads the ordinance will understand that there is nothing against interfaith marriages. But when there are complaints about forcing somebody to change their faith after marriage it should be taken seriously and it is illegal. If there is no complaint no police will go and arrest somebody. If that happens nobody is going to accept that in our country. If both the persons like each other and respects the sentiments of the partner, they should both the faiths and they should go together. There should not be any change in the faith. If voluntarily somebody wants to change let them change as per the procedure laid down.
    drrao
    always confident

  • #717148
    #717131
    The need for the law is to prevent the people from harassment caused by the forced conversion of religion.

    There was the mass conversion of religion not by force but by allurement. Earlier in many States, there was a huge problem of mass conversion of tribals by Christian missionaries. They lured tribals to economic and spiritual upliftment. They took benefit of their poverty and illiteracy. And the Conversion of religion through allurement is also unlawful. The ordinance is against the unlawful conversion.

  • #717149
    Deepali,
    If religion can give a better life, why not we shift to that religion. There are religions that cares for the poor and the downtrodden. They help people to raise and live like others in society. It is the capability of that religion to provide the comforts. Nothing wrong in it. They try to lure, but an individual has a right to choose the religion or the life. In the past many have shifted their religion. Even poor Christians have turned as Hindus.

    Let the individual make a complaint if it was forced upon him. The existing laws available to us can take care of the defaulters. But, the recent arrests are found to be a law for interfaith marriages as reported in the media.

    In the past and present, Christians keep on drum beating their religion as good, better and the best, and no action was taken against the promoters. They still have their freedom to invite others to join their religion.

    Once again, I repeat that this new law is created with a fear of Hindus turning Muslims, not for Hindus turning Christians.

    No life without Sun

  • #717151
    Assumptions without any basis may not go well especially when we read the laws. Anyhow finally I will say that nothing to worry about this Law as long as the intentions are correct. Only people who will harass others to change their faith after marriage or before marriage or at any point of time only should stop such activities after seeing this law. No one should support forced conversions.
    drrao
    always confident

  • #717172
    Sorry for joining the GD so late today. It's almost time to conclude.

    Well before I conclude my GD participation, I would like to add a point. A while ago I was going through some newspaper articles and learned that although we all know that the UP Ordinance is not the first of its kind as Madhya Pradesh and Odisha had an Act long back, still there is a big difference. The preamble of the UP Ordinance mentions that it would forbid the 'unlawful conversion by marriage' while in the Acts of Madhya Pradesh and Odisha the word 'marriage' is not found. So, the intention is very clear which the fellow supporting members are keen to ignore.

    shampasaid

  • #717173
    #717172
    Please refer my posts #716942, #710768, #717034, in which I have mentioned that UP is not the first State which is passing this Ordinance which has used the word "marriage". Uttarakhand and Himachal Pradesh implemented the Freedom of Religion Act in 2017 & 2018, respectively and introduced Word "marriage" for the first time. In my post I have also explained the reason of introducing the word "Marriage" in their Act. Same situation is with the Uttar Pradesh. Because of increase number of such cases the UP government has promulgated this ordinance.

  • #717174
    #717149
    Yes, absolutely. If religion can give a better life, anybody can shift to that religion. But again it should be voluntarily and if anybody imposes their religion to others forcibly, it should not be accepted. Because an individual has a right to choose the religion or the life and this law is not prohibiting choosing their religion. They can choose and the law will help them legally so that they will not face any issue in future.

    And people are complaining that's why the government has taken this step.

    I am concluding my GD with the following points:

    Anybody's religion is an issue of faith and nobody has rights to change anyone's faith by force." In Noor Jahan Begum case( 2014) judgment of the Allahabad high court, Court stated “that the alleged marriage was illegal as it was performed after a conversion which could not be justified in law...conversion just for the purpose of marriage is unacceptable. .." (Women converted to Hinduism). Similar Priyanshi Case is also there. In view of these cases, the UP Government has decide to pass this law.

    Further, the UP Government ordinance of doesn't attack any religious belief. It only prescribes punishment for "unlawful conversion." It does not prevent inter-religious marriage. It is religion neutral. It only makes forcible conversion a punishable offence. Besides, the law doesn't curb the people's freedom from practising the religion of their choice. Hence, the Law is the right move in the right direction and not against freedom of religion.

  • #717176
    #717173

    Two wrongs don't make a right.

    Well, it's time to add my concluding statement regarding the GD.

    I am of the clear view that the UP Ordinance will create disharmony between the people of different religions. People will lose trust upon fellow citizens. Nothing will be weighed irrespective of religion which will hurt the integrity of India at large.

    A member in support of the Ordinance had opined that girls fail to register a complaint because of pressure, but I feel otherwise. A girl, who can fall in love and have the ability to decide her partner for life, doesn't have guts to protest and file a complaint is simply unbelievable to me.

    Such an Ordinance will be tremendously misused. Many innocent people would be penalised and face a jail term because the Ordinance will grossly misuse it to take some revenge. Gradually, the people of different religions will be at loggerheads. It's time to promote free thinking while some politicians trying to bind people in the name of religion. Religion should not be imposed but must be given the freedom to choose and follow it.

    Thus, I am against the Ordinance. No one, not even the government has the right to force anyone to follow a particular faith. If one wishes to convert then he or she should not be prohibited. The term 'forced' conversion is a dicey statement as it will have too many implications, so it will be better to leave the marriageable partners to decide their future action. Legal step should be taken only then when any one partner registers a complaint.

    shampasaid

  • #717177
    Time for my conclusion. The GD is titled" Love Jihad Law "for discussion. Though the term " Love Jihad" is not mentioned anywhere in the ordinance passed by the UP government, the words" Forced conversion through marriage' is much suited to the term 'Love Jihad Law." Thanks to the author who created the words "Love Jihad" an improper English and Urdu mixed word.

    Generally, no individual can be forced to change their religion at a knife or pistol point. It can only happen through marriages where love makes the couple to forget their religion or choose a religion. Interfaith marriages are a daily affair with the mutual consent of the partners. It is the third party who is against the religion creates problem to the couples, especially the hardcore Hindus. Especially by the hardcore Hindu politicians of our country. As I reiterated again and again during the discussion, it is the fear that the conversion of a particular religion would harm the major religion of India. To say openly, it is only the conversion to Islam. They are not much worried about conversion to Christianity as they are the absolute minority when compared to the Muslims.

    While the whole world is worried about the pandemic and the vaccine for the cure, it is not the time to pass a new ordinance against interfaith marriage. Truly and firmly, I would conclude my discussion by saying that the Love Jihad Law is against a particular religion which the present rulers feel that such conversion would harm the Hindus of India and their population would increase to make India an Islamic country. It is an uncalled worry and fear. India would continue to be a Hindu nation as long as the earth rotates.

    Let us not trouble the true and faithful interfaith lovers through the Love Jihad Law.

    Jai Hind.

    No life without Sun


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