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  • Category: Miscellaneous

    Isn't this a patriarchal society?

    In the last few days, news in Kerala has been capturing a lot of attention from the audience. It is that a beauty pageant winner and runner-up died in a car accident. The incident took place when they were returning from a night DJ party which was held at a luxury hotel. Subsequent news reports lead to some mysteries that need to be unraveled. But that is not what I came to say. When I saw this news as a Facebook post in my feed by some of the news channel accounts, I happened to see the comment section. I need to say this, but the comments were extremely disturbing and disgusting.

    "Why did they go to the night DJ party?"
    "Why did they go out with their friends at night?"
    "Parents should have been more careful while raising their daughters."
    "They should be ashamed of themselves to go out to these parties in luxury hotels."

    And some comments were really pointing their fingers by questioning the ladies' character. These comments were posted not only by men but also by women.

    You know what, they were really capable people. They were successful in their careers. And one of them was a doctor. Even then the society blames them or even their families only because they are women? I feel like I still live in an extremely patriarchal society. How do you feel about this?
  • #746892
    I do agree with the author that when something happens like this, the society would pour with their choicest abuse and even rave comments because being educated and having known that late night parties are always associated with intoxication through which none has the control over the vehicle and if the party was important, they should have stayed back in the hotel and returned the next morning. Now the joy of winning the pageant was over shadowed by the accident and that led to the death of the runner up of the event. That is very sad. Just think about the parents who are waiting at the home to welcome the girl who won the beauty contest and instead they were forced to receive the dead body. The high living people should also care the society and family at home and should behave in sense.

    [Note from forum editor- Understand the topic, check facts, then respond. It is not necessary to be the first to respond, but to respond well.]

    K Mohan @ Moga
    'Idhuvum Kadandhu Pogum "
    Even this challenging situation would ease

  • #746893
    That is true. This society is having different types of people. When police shot at a criminal who raped a girl, some people talked against the police. As a matter of fact, the police who shot such a criminal, there should be rewards to him. But even some so-called human activists filed a case against the police.
    There are people who question the victim more than the victim in many cases. Many people post irresponsible comments on social media. This has become the order of the day.
    There are people even today who will never support equal rights to all genders. So making every think alike is not an easy job and we have to go on with them. But the real authorities should look into the cases without any affiliations towards a particular side and see who is at fault and the person responsible should be punished. But this is also not happening in our country. It takes years together to finalise the case.

    always confident

  • #746895

    I would like to clear up some confusion in the post. Actually, there were two people. One was the Miss Kerala 2019 winner and another person is Miss Kerala 2019 runner-up. In their car, there were 4 people including their driver. The car driver is the sole survivor of this accident.

    There will be intoxication at the night party. But not everyone wants to use it. Not only that, but I do not think it's wrong for women to use it if men can use it. And if we bring up our traditions and culture, it is only natural to feel uneasy about it. I was mentioning the patriarchal approach society throws at this sort of situation. If this happened to 2 men, would the response or comments be better? That was the exact question that I wanted to ask.

    “It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends."
    – Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, Chapter 17

  • #746896
    DR.N.V. Srinivasa Rao,

    Yes. I agree with what you said. Society is always like that. There will always be multiple opinions. That is true. But in such scenarios, if the victim is of the female gender, everybody will be so worked up to blame her and her ways. We are in the 21st century and as per Hindustan Times - "In 2020, the literacy rate of India is 77.7% while Kerala has emerged as the most literate state in the country, followed by Delhi". So I was wondering if this is the case of the most literate state in India, what would be it like in other states? Equality in words, but it will take a long way to reach to be in action.

    “It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends."
    – Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, Chapter 17

  • #746899
    I think including a point that is under investigation in this post will help us have a more fruitful discussion. Two questions are being asked. What made them leave the place hurriedly in the middle of the night when the party was still on and what made them decide to go with a driver who was drunk. It has been reported that their common friends advised against travelling in a car that was being driven by him.

    In such a situation, I think a majority of the society would put forward similar questions even if the victims were men. It is basically such incidents, the time, the people involved etc that creates such reactions. People tend to react in such ways when they feel that the victims or the company they were in did not take proper care and caution. I personally do not think that it is because we are still in a patriarchal society or something like that.

    'Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself is true power'. -Lao Tzu

  • #746907
    Saji Ganesh,

    I don't have any intention of unraveling the mysteries of this news. Let us hope that the authorities will solve this puzzle. What I was trying to question was the mentality of people to blame the person in such cases when the opposite party is a woman.

    You mentioned that in such cases people will react the same even if the opposite party are men. But when Aryan Khan was arrested for drug-related allegations, I didn't see people questioning his life choices. I didn't see anyone pointing their fingers at him shooting such questions as "Why was he in the cruize when they served drugs there?", "Why was he there with other models?", "Why did he participate in this late-night party". I am not avoiding the scenario that there were people who were criticized him. But the count was negligible compared to the people who supported the Khan family in the crisis and to the people who took this as a natural thing in a celebrity's life.

    Don't you see the irony here?

    “It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends."
    – Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, Chapter 17

  • #746946
    Ann, Aryan Khan himself is, as of now, an accused in the case. So there is a difference. In the particular case of the two models, the presumption is that they were victims.
    'Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself is true power'. -Lao Tzu

  • #746967
    Accused and Victim.

    Saji, I hope you understand the difference between an accused and a victim. Even an accused person didn't get that much criticism when there were many proofs or allegations were there. But the victims got many yet. What have they done so wrong? Is going out at night is wrong? Or attending a DJ party is so wrong? What have they done so wrong to be character assassinated like that? As you mentioned, as of now, Aryan is accused of a drug allegation but never got character-assassinated by the crowd. And you are saying that if "men" were victims, they would have got the same treatment from the crowd when you clearly differentiated this case and Aryan's now.

    I don't know if I will ever understand the logic out of what you just mentioned. But yeah, we all have our own differences and perspectives when understanding a topic. And I respect that and really appreciate you for following up on this topic.

    “It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends."
    – Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, Chapter 17

  • #747033
    Ann, you did not get my point, it seems. Do we criticise robbers or goons or prostitutes or people involved in nefarious activities for going out at night or for not taking proper care and caution to be on a safer side even when they become victims for one reason or the other? I don't think. People tend to criticise or give their views only when the victims are people who are not expected to move out at inappropriate times and are from a different section of society. Coming to Aryan Khan's case, though people did not criticise him for being out for what they call 'night party' or whatever, I have seen several posts and trolls criticising King Khan himself for not bringing up his son in a manner befitting his position. So, in this case, the criticism was on a different note.

    I don't think we can generalise such issues and come to a common conclusion.

    'Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself is true power'. -Lao Tzu

  • #747035
    Victim blaming is the most common thing in India in any crime related to women, society's patriarchal mindset and the brainwash with which people have grown up is clearly visible in the comment section of any such news be it rape victim, acid attack victim, domestic violence victim fighting for divorce cases and rights of single mothers.
    Pick any such issue and you will find the first thing the trolls and men do is the victim-blaming not for once they directly accuse the actual committer of the crime. In fact, those who are involved in the crimes are often the man grown up with such a patriarchal mindset believing woman to be their property and not an individual beings.
    If you ever watch the documentary made on the criminals of the Nirbhaya rape case you will see how deep-rooted these patriarchal values are in the minds of such criminals that they don't even see it as a crime.
    The case you have mentioned where you might have seen all the speculation regarding woman being intoxicated is one such example when in actuality this is something very common in India. And you will find any normal man talking and questioning woman's character in any normal setting rather than helping her out.
    Saji as you have pointed out the case of Aryan Khan that was a case where media tried to harness as much as attention and TRP through the case it was more of a gimmick to divert the attention and hence try to show him like accuse. But what the author has mentioned is a living experience of woman, open any social media post, youtube video and any event related to woman you will always find such patriarchy visible because the blaming happens specially in case of woman.
    If in case of the Miss India their would have been a man the full focus would have been on the accident rather than roaming around the night and even if the man might have been intoxicated fingers will not point towards his character as it happens in the cases of woman. This kind of witch hunting is a common thing in case of woman.

    "It is hardest thing in the world to be good thinker without being a good self examiner"

  • #747077
    Ann and Neelam, will you accept if I say that your arguments suggest that you are feminists? I don't think you will. Similarly, just because victims, especially women, are criticised by society for their unconventional ways, and also when the criticisers include women, how are you concluding that ours is a patriarchal society? Are you sure that such criticisms would not have been there if ours was a matriarchal society? Tell me who questions you first if you come home late than usual. Father or mother? So, I don't think such practices have anything to do with genders.

    Let us not base our arguments on personal beliefs or inclinations but simply on logical reasoning so that the material when compiled appear meaningful. I think I have had my say unless you have some specific questions for me.

    'Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself is true power'. -Lao Tzu

  • #747079
    There are people who comment on others without understanding the actual situation. Here they even don't care for the genders also. They go on commenting. That will be nature.
    Yesterday I read the news that a lady killed her husband for some silly reason. After hearing this one of my friends commented that the husband might have done something wrong. Otherwise, ladies are not that cruel. They can't go to the extent of killing. Can I say by hearing his words that society always supports women only but not men?
    What I say is we can't just decide by a few people's talk.

    always confident

  • #747081
    Saji it is not necessary that for being the perpetrators of patriarchy you have to be a male or patriarch. More often woman is the biggest propounder of patriarchy. Women in villages even in urban areas brought up with the mindset that values a male and his opinion more than females are the victim of internal patriarchy. The value system with which they have grown up, it is difficult for them to leave it. And they are victims as well as perpetrators of patriarchy by inculcating the same value system in their children as well.

    Education not only helps us to learn but unlearn what is wrong with society and many a time such women and men fail to unlearn the things they should.
    Firstly you need to understand patriarchy as an institution and a gender man are two different things and should not be seen as one, as in your case you thought criticism of patriarchy is somehow a criticism of man and tried to rationalise it by pointing out the woman as well doing the same thing.
    And yes I am a feminist but not the way society sees the term but someone who talks about equal rights.

    "It is hardest thing in the world to be good thinker without being a good self examiner"

  • #747086
    Neelam, I understand what patriarchy is and I do accept your contention that elderly women who have been brought up believing that men are superior do tend to be patriarchal in nature. But I hope you will accept that the underlying principle of patriarchy is male domination. And that is exactly what I am saying.

    Advising your children or restricting them to certain limitations or people criticising victims, or even otherwise, especially women, actually has got nothing to do with patriarchy. Be it a boy or girl, if he/she has the strength to protect themselves, we actually seldom bother. For example, I may not worry much if my son who is strong, mentally and physically and is aware of what he is doing and the possible outcomes chooses to stay out late in the night, but my reaction won't be the same if he is weak or fragile or is not in a position to expect the unexpected. What I am saying is that it is not gender-based. It depends on various factors.

    The models referred to in the thread were grown up, they were educated, they were bold and they knew the society well, yet they became victims. How? Because the situation they were in was beyond their control. They were not, for whatever reasons, in a position to protect themselves and that is the reason why they were criticised by a section of the society. Criticism may sound harsh or illogical when you put it across in a few words and you can't expect everyone to write essays on what they feel and give the reasons thereof when you are on a social media platform. We can't expect everyone to support us despite the final results.

    When we venture to move away from the accepted (whether right or wrong) or conventional path, we must be ready to accept criticism just the way we feel excited to accept accolades.

    'Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself is true power'. -Lao Tzu

  • #747088
    We have been gone through this discussion many times but in different ways. A person should adopt a new thinking on many subjects, sometimes it happens that some people of the society feel the need to express their opinion without thinking and they start giving their views without any information or sometimes half incomplete information. . In this case, of course, the investigation is the only factor and only then the whole situation will be known. On the useless views of the general public, perhaps we cannot say whether the society is patriarchal or not.

  • #747109
    Saji, Why did you think that I would not agree to be called a feminist? Is that a bad thing? Of course, I am a feminist. If anyone supports equality, they are feminists irrespective of their gender. Feminism means "the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes". A man can also be a feminist because it is also a gender justice movement.
    “It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends."
    – Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, Chapter 17

  • #747120
    When such incidents occur people make all types of comments irrespective of whether the affected people are males or females. It is also true that in case of females the comments will be much more elaborate in the sense that in our society people still expect certain decorum from the females while no one bothers for the actions of males. It is of course a unhealthy situation because we should not make comments differentiating the genders. If someone intoxicated is indulged in some incident then whether it is a male or female doesn't matter. We should not differentiate between them from that angle. Unfortunately many people who are commenting are actually differentiating like that. So, I agree with the author that to some extent our society is still patriarchal in its nature.
    Knowledge is power.

  • #747139
    Ann, is that what I said? Read the first sentence of my response at #747077 carefully.
    'Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself is true power'. -Lao Tzu

  • #747143

    "Ann and Neelam, will you accept if I say that your arguments suggest that you are feminists? I don't think you will." I know that this is what you said. Why do you assume that I will not accept it? Implying that I am a feminist based on my arguments, isn't it like mentioning that I am a feminist. Or is there any other meaning which I don't understand?

    “It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends."
    – Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, Chapter 17

  • #747159
    Yes, Ann. What I meant was whether it would be fine if I or any reader assume that you are a feminist just on the basis of the arguments you have put forth here. You see, it need not be. The views you have expressed here may be in the context of the particular topic under discussion only. It cannot be generalised. What I mean to say is that we need to approach issues case by case and should not arrive at a general conclusion based on a few incidents.

    For example, just tell me one thing, have you ever heard anyone criticising women who go for road trips across the country or even the world? I think people appreciate such ventures, particularly when they are undertaken by women.

    'Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself is true power'. -Lao Tzu

  • #747169
    I agree that people will be praising them. In your scenario, I would like to add an imaginary point also. The women are going on a road trip. What if some mishap happens to them? The same people you think who will be praising them will be the first to criticize them right? The first comment will be like it happened because they went on the road trip by themselves without somebody to protect them. But for men, that wouldn't be the case. That is what I am trying to point out. I guess Neelam and Umesh also might have the same opinion as mine in this argument. And how much you try to defend against this, in India it is going to be the same.
    “It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends."
    – Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, Chapter 17

  • #747172
    Ann, that is where we are going wrong. Why create an imaginary situation at all until that happens? Where is the hurry? And, I would like to say that such imaginations are wild. We know that criticism cannot be avoided. Tell me one area where there is no criticism. What I am saying is that it is not gender-based. I reiterate that it depends on many factors like age, situation, the incident, the outcome and so many like factors, including gender. But such criticism has, basically, nothing to do with gender. As I said, we will have to look into it on a case to case basis instead of simply trying to bring it within a bracket.
    'Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself is true power'. -Lao Tzu

  • #747180
    Saji I agree with Ann on this matter as you asked us as if we will have some kind of shame associated with the term feminist.
    Many people who don't really understand feminism often think of it as a term associated with the modern woman with the western lifestyle and thinking, but that is not at all true as you can find a feminist in rural areas any strong lady fighting for her right even if she don't really understand the word feminism.

    And about the controversy gender does bring many aspects into question whenever someone is being criticised. And it is difficult for someone to understand who is privileged in that area.
    For example, an upper-caste member of society not really understand the experiences of a lower caste person based on caste prejudice.
    Similarly, a man often fails to understand things that a woman have to go through because of gender bias in society. A normal situation gets exaggerated and taken to out of proportion when it is about a woman and the witch-hunting too.

    "It is hardest thing in the world to be good thinker without being a good self examiner"

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